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#1 taikara

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Posted 28 November 2006 - 01:21 AM

I bought FFXII (collector's edition) because I typically love the FF games, and their innovative gameplay...

After playing it, I'm not particularly impressed. So much so, that I don't even want to think about playing it all the way through. For me, that's a really big deal. I'll play pretty much anything compulsively as long as it has A.) Decent gameplay or B.) Decent story.

The only phenomenal thing about FFXII, in my opinion, is the graphics. The music is pretty good too, but it feels kind of campy for being fully orchestrated. Also good is the Hunt system and the Loot/Bazaar system.

Beyond that, I just pretty much hate it.

The fighting system has to be the most boring system I've ever subjected myself to. It's like a combination of .hack's MMOGish system (though I've been emphatically informed that comparing a first-class franchaise like FF to below-the-radar .hack is tacky and baseless, but hey, I can only go with what I know) and ATB. Therefore, it's really, really tedious. You have to "program" your party's AI with things called gambits, which are really just a very limited sort of scripting language in disguise. One reviewer claims this is cool because it keeps your party doing useful things while you, oh I dunno, go walk the dog a few times around the block - but personally, I buy games so I can PLAY them... maybe it's just me. Oh, you can choose to enter commands manually, but it's even more annoying if you choose to do it that way.

The "character customization" system is done with the License Board - where you spend points to "buy" skills, including the ability to use weapons, armors, and accessories. It's not really so bad, except for the fact that in essence, you end up with all your characters being pretty much the same character halfway through the game. The only real "customization" to it is whether you think a particular character looks better holding a spear or a gun.

The story, though not bad, is also not great, nor is it very interesting. It's definitely not very Final Fantasy (or at least, what I expect from Final Fantasy), in that it puts character development on the backburner for a more epic story of political intrigue that seems eerily similar to Star Wars with a dash of Aladdin, only with less interesting characters, and no space travel or genies. One reviewer stated that it was a plus that the FF characters are merely cogs in the mechanism of the story rather than the frontliners... well, I'm sorry, but I also don't play RPGs to be a widget in a factory, I play to be a hero (or anti-hero, as the case may be).

Probably the most incredibly annoying aspect of the game is the "random" treasure chests. Nothing is more frustrating than being excited by finding some hidden off-the-map area in a decently leveled location and opening a lone chest only to find a few coins that aren't even enough to buy a measly potion with. Supposedly, you can keep retrying the chest to get the "good" item, but these maps are insanely huge - I don't see myself leaving and then taking the thirty minutes to an hour to fight my way back into that area multiple times just to get an item that might be pretty cool.

The only review I've found that dares to mention these obnoxious aspects of the game is on Honest Gamers. Pretty much every other review I've found out there oozes over the fantastic graphics and soundtrack and fuzzes over these issues I've mentioned with some of the most incredible politicking I've ever seen.

It must be nice to be the Final Fantasy franchaise and have complete dominion over the opinions of the masses. Commercialism at its finest, I suppose.

But hey, the moogles and chocobos look great!

Fanboys (and girls), do your worst :sneaky:
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#2 DeathDude

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Posted 28 November 2006 - 01:48 AM

Bleh, yeah I've been reading a lot on Final Fantasy 12 this past while and it seems everywhere you go, every site/publication is praising this greatness of this game.

The fighting system sounds so unlike Final Fantasy, can understand that they may want to change the mechanics of the system but one that you merely watch as your team fights, sounds boring to me. :sneaky:

As well in regards to the story: "That's pretty much the game's routine: introduce a particular character's family-related dilemma, resolve that dilemma, then push him or her to the side to make room for the next character's dilemma."

The story from what I've read and been told does seem pretty weak and not like the classic epicness you would expect from the series I mean Star Wars now, seems the writers are running out of ideas.

Also from reading that review at honest gamers, this line struck me..

For example, I killed a really powerful (and optional) crawling demon beast, passed through the secret door behind it, crossed hidden corridors, and opened the treasure chest at the end to receive...

...48 coins.

Geez Square, usually rare and optional battles like this would oh I don't know equal a really awesome weapon! Come on now.

From what I have read around finding an unbiased opinion on this game is tough, IGN and Gamespot just seem to go gaga over the game, honestly its a bit much, especially when ya notice around the net that a lot of gamers don't like the game. Really does seem that Final Fantasy does get a lot of praise most times, but in this case just cause the past FF games have been good shouldn't be a precedent in this case that the next FF game also receive the same treatment.

The same can be said for example. with Super Mario Sunshine when it first came out. A lot of reviewers were saying how great the game was, how it was so excellent with it's new elements and some even said best mario game eva!

Well it was an okay game, but what does it boil down too, mario cleaning up paint over and over, with some other elements added in, it was a decent game but nowhere near the amount of praise it received, 64 easily was still better than Sunshine.

Can understand why some reviewers may end up praising a game of an established franchise for fear of backlash from the gamers, and just to avoid bashing and other so-called consequences. Think it's more harmful for a new gamer coming into a franchise like FF and after playing something like 12 basically walking away after reading these praised reviews, is worse than just being honest. I know that some reviewers do legitimitally like Final Fantasy 12, and that's understandable, but the amount that have seen across the net and in other medias, I have my doubts.

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#3 Potatoe

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Posted 28 November 2006 - 06:59 AM

View PostDeathDude, on Nov 28 2006, 01:48 AM, said:

Also from reading that review at honest gamers, this line struck me..

For example, I killed a really powerful (and optional) crawling demon beast, passed through the secret door behind it, crossed hidden corridors, and opened the treasure chest at the end to receive...

...48 coins.
HAHA! OH god, funny. And yeah, IGN and Gamespot only care about graphics and sound. And also that it doesn't have bugs that crash the game, and if it's as shooter it HAS to be realistic(Just Cause got something like 7.7, it's not a bad game and should have atleast 8.5)

#4 DeathDude

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Posted 28 November 2006 - 02:31 PM

I would say that's more gamespot personally, IGN is at least a little bit better reviewwise, not always but more often I've noticed.

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#5 Blood-Pigggy

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Posted 29 November 2006 - 06:22 PM

Unless it's one of the handheld games, every FF game since FF7 has sucked (I just barely let that pass, I think FF7 is decent and nothing more, FF6 was the drawing line in my opinion).

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#6 DeathDude

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Posted 29 November 2006 - 06:57 PM

Well there really hasn't been any sort of new FF game on the handheld side, except with the FF III game remake on the ds. Personally I think that while the games after 7 have been good in most cases, 8 had a strong story, and some good ideas, just bad battle system, while 9 took the elements of the snes games and added in some great characters, although with an easier quest, and 10 well haven't played much of it, but from what I heard it had a good story, interesting battle system, and more going for it. Granted most of those games did get high scores anyway from most sources, so ya can take it a few ways, definitely was some bias with some of those reviews that definitely wasn't necessary.

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#7 Blood-Pigggy

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Posted 30 November 2006 - 01:14 PM

???

I own at least three Final Fantasy games for my Gameboy Advance that have come out in the past few years.

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#8 DeathDude

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Posted 30 November 2006 - 02:06 PM

I mean new new Final Fantasy, not the remakes, although they did add some things, still is pretty much the same games as the originals with updated graphics and battle mode changes.

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#9 Sabreman

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Posted 03 December 2006 - 07:36 PM

Well, I'm completely in love with it. Story-wise it's not as engaging as some other entries in the series (I tend not to find political intrigue very... intriguing), but in terms of actual play it outstrips all the others. Moving around a persistent, scaled world is a treat, as is not having to bear the agonies of random encounters - a truly archaic relic from JRPGs that should have been consigned to the bin years ago. On a basic level it does so many things right and remedies so many aspects of traditional RPGs that have become albatrosses around the genres' neck.

The gambit system is a superb method of assigning menial tasks to your party members (do you really want to pause the action every few seconds to tell your white mage to heal a character with low HP?). There seems to be a general misconception about that the game plays itself for you. Believe me, if you set your party against a boss monster and put the controller down expecting Gambits to do the job you'll be in trouble pretty quickly. If you want the most hands-on, intense experience from it you can customize the controls to suit you - set it to fast active mode and turn off the Gambits. Conversely if you want it to play like a traditional RPG you can choose to take control of everyone yourself and play in turns.

It's a controversial title because of its innovations in the offline RPG genre (I know that a lot of its gameplay mechanics are lifted from MMORPGs). Diehard traditional FF fans are divided on it because of this. In my opinion the series needed a shakeup rather drastically (after the highs of 6,7 and possibly 8 it's been a steady slide downwards), and I firmly believe that FFXII delivers. I've played them all - some of them very extensively - but I don't consider myself a fan of the series, merely a fan of some of the games from the series. Therefore I have little bias either way. If XII turned out to be another lacklustre effort I wouldn't be crushed, but I am happy that I finally have a new console RPG I can get my teeth into and one that I'll undoubtedly play for a long, long time.

#10 taikara

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Posted 03 December 2006 - 08:08 PM

The story IS very weak and boring... though on a positive note, it's not the "well-meaning psycho needs to destroy/take over the world to save it" sort of story, but it still is just boring, and there's no saving it.

Amen to the no random encounters, but the battles are still tedious and annoying. It's not a misconception that gambits play for you - that's what they do. Yes, in boss battles, you have to watch carefully and enter commands manually, but for the rest of the 90% of fighting you do in the game, you can just walk away from the PS2 and let your gambits do the work. I've done it in auto-regenerating (undead enemy mostly) areas. While it's cool that you can level this way, it's not so cool that for the most part, fighting consists of just watching.

Yeah, as I said, you can choose to enter commands manually and pretend it's "turn based", but the system is not friendly at all for this method of play. It's worse than the boringness of watching the fighting in gambit mode.

It's just way over-complicated for the "pseudo-MMORPG" approach. I've mentioned the .hack series, which is an admittedly inferior franchaise, but the pseudo-MMORPG style of play for that series is FUN, because you're still actively involved in battles without them being overly tedious, or reliant on constant tweaks. You assign your allies' battle styles, and then wack away at the enemies yourself, action game style. You can change your parties commands on the fly (healing, all-out-attack, defensive, etc) without having to check an entire list of character AI gambit commands.

What FF's system basically boils down to is having to be the AI programmer yourself. Sure, some people enjoy this, and I'll admit, it's a cool concept, but for such a long game, it's too boring and limited. If I'm going to have the ability to program my party's AI, I want a fully robust if-then-else scenario system in which I can give specific, detailed instructions that I don't necessarily have to mess with constantly - not some ridiculously limited spaghetti code that's so quirky that you have to keep adjusting it for the situation, and hope it works alright. Failing that, I just want the AI programmers to do their freaking jobs and just allow me the satisfaction of whacking the snot out of some bad guys without having to overthink it - is that too much to ask?

I'm not disappointed because I'm a fan of FF. I'm disappointed because I'm a fan of RPGs. Hell, I'm a fan of games in general. The FF franchaise has the money, the talent, and the ability to pull off something truly awesome - and imho, they've just delivered a lackluster story with overcomplicated gameplay mechanics.

Boring, boring, boring :)
..<[[[Tofu Ninja of the Pickasldawessle Order]]]>..
QUOTE (Tai - in response to DD on how people who fear change are like cats)
you mean the "you moved my litterbox, so I'm going to pee in your clothes hamper" attitude?
Yes, I just quoted myself. ph34r my T4i-F00!!.
doodoodoo!!!



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