36 replies to this topic

[Tom Henrik]

This is a very interesting debate, and I am interested in seeing how it is handled on this forum. I think that the average user in this forum have more common sense then the average user on the Abandonia Forum. I believe we will be able to have a good debate on the subjects;


Abortion

• Should it be legal/illegal?
  
• What are the pros and cons surrounding abortion?
  
• Why do we even have abortions? What makes them so contraverse?
  
• Who should pay for an abortion? Should there be cases where the government pays it all?

Vasectomies

• Should it be mandatory for men? Sorta a ritual from boy-status to manhood?
  
• What are the pros and cons? (Keep in mind that it is a reversible operation.)
  
• Who should pay? (Same as with abortions...)

Personally, I think that abortions should be legalized everywhere, and that the future "mother" should decide if she wanted an abortion or not. I also think that abortions are a good way (as society is today) to prevent unwanted babies, and also help a little to the overpopulation problem. Another thing is that I feel the government should pay parts of the operation (would mean higher taxes, but I think we'll manage). In cases of rape, I think the operation should be paid in full by the government.

As for vasectomy as a manhood ritual, I think that it is a brilliant idea. Why?

Well...
First off, it should be paid in full by the government for those who want to use this ritual.
Now... the operation would leave the guy sterile, which means he doesn't have to use a condom, thus can enjoy sex more. Plus, the girl wouldn't need to use The Pill. The Pill is known to have serious effects on many girls as it plays roulette with the hormones. Many girls develop cancer as they have been on The Pill from their early teens to their mid-thirties because the are afraid of getting pregrant. Sterilize the boy, and there is no hormonal hazard going on inside the girl. And when the boy is ready to settle down and have a family, he can just reverse the operation.

To furthen the idea:
For a man to get his sperms back (so to say), he and his wife need to sign a petition that states that both of them want the operation reversed. That way you can be sure that both the parents really want the child and will do their best to take care of it.

What do you people think

[MdaG]

Abortions should be payed by the girl who wants to make them (and the man she had intercourse with) and not the givernment. In cases of rape, the persecutor should pay (if he's found guilty of rape) otherwise it should be handled as a normal abortion case. Concerning vasectomies I'm with you except I think that the operation should be payed by the individual who wants it and not the government. I also believe that it should be up to the man if he wants to do/undo the operation. Which means no signature from the wife/girlfriend/mistress or whatever.

[Puffin]

Well, about who pays it all, people from different societies have really different ideas about that sorta stuff. Like... I live in a society where medical help isn't expensive compared to other places, or so I've heard.

For an examination with my family doctor, I, as a person under 18 years of age, pay 10?. If anything has to be done, then it's more.

But what I'm trying to say, is that I believe it is different in other countries. So how can people argue about stuff like that, if they're used to different stuff than others?
Gah I don't think I make sense..


My opinion:
Abortions should be free for women/girls under 18.


*disappears*

[Havell]

I think vasectomies should be free, as should their reversal.
As for abortions, it's a difficult question for me.  One side of me says that they should be free, like I beleive all healthcare should be.  The other half says that women should have to pay or go private if they want an abortion as it's their fault having unprotected sex (unless, it's rape, of course, in which case I think that the government should pay initailly, and then the perpetraitor fined for the cost when he is prosecuted; along with a healthy spell in prison too, of course).

[Sebatianos]

Well - I agree that entire healthcare should be free (how very utopic). But would abortion actually fall in the category of "health care"? Is aborting pregnency really curing anything? I mean being pregnent is not being ill, unhelthy, having a broken limb,... It's more like the category of plastic surgery, hair transplantation,... Things you don't really need to do, but may want to do them (just like vasectomies).

[Puffin]

@Havell:
Women can get pregnant even though they use protections. Don't forget that. Even the Pill + condom =  <100%.

@Seb:
If my mother would get pregnant today, she would have an abortion. Not because she doesn't want a baby, but because both she and the baby would get REALLY sick and probably die. Like almost happened to my baby sister when she was born. Think women should pay for abortions in circumstances like this?

[Tulac]

I don't think it's should be mandatory, because things can go wrong and government would then be blamed for *meep*ing up your life if something goes wrong...

[Juni Ori]

Abortion: Absolutely legal. As noticed, pregnancy can endanger mother's health and in these cases it could be funded by government. Also remember that before christian church had stricted its views on sexual behaviour and intentional miscarriage, in so called barbarian times, it was more than common women realizing they had got pregnant to cause miscarriage. Of course times were different and unexpected pregnancies were common, but there were no guarantees that babychild would even live his or her fifth year. I personally think that condom, properly used, if used, should be enough and therefor government isn't responsible to cover these costs.

Vasectomy: First of all, there's who knows how many different types and sizes of condoms so there should be one which doesn't feel uncomfy. Also this discussion is absolutely waste of time, if we are speaking of getting rid of those uncomfy condoms. What about venereal diseases? Doesn't much help if juice is blank.

Overall I believe it's more sociological question than medical. Proper education and support from family and close society should be obvious. First of all, sexual education should be moved from school to parents. Secondly, discussion, both public and personal,  should get much more open and artificial moral barriers removed.

[Puffin]

I'm really surpriced by how many people here seem to think that it's enough to use contraceptions  

You're telling me that you've never had a condom break, or at least know anyone or heard of anyone who has had that happening?
Seriously, I have safe sex, but I've at least twice had a condom to break. That's one of the reasons I'm on the Pill.

[Juni Ori]

Puffin, as such you have good point, but in most cases condom is broken due to improper use, or poor (read: cheap) quality. This can be however fixed by education, but you're still right partially right, it's not enough. Even pill isn't 100%. Nothing is. And unless you have religious conviction or similar hindrance to abortion, it should be last resost if keeping the child is out of the question.

I must have used hundreds of condoms during my life and not once has girl became pregnant with condom. How many times has condom broken. None afaik. And remember that not every time you have sex without condom or pill girl comes pregnant. The odds are actually against it.

[DakaSha]

I cant say anything to the Vasectomies because i know nothing about them except NO it should not be mandatory because id rather die than be forced to lose my ability to have a kid... even if it can be reversed. that doesnt mean i wouldnt do it.... im just not going to be forced into it. (it cant be mandatory anyways in most countrys because religeons would strictly forbid it for thier followers)

when it comes to abortions i think they should be paid by the goverment in specific cases (rape, incest, medical problems...way to underage (i dont think saying "im 16 i should get it for free" is legit. first off its natural to have kids at that age and second at 16 you should have the brains to watch out))

i think it should be mandatory for a woman to visit a counseler when she decides on having an abortion. not because i think it will really mess up her head but because there are to many woman (also men yes... but it just isnt thier body) who take it to lightly. some women will just have an abortion every time they get pregnant. i think thats wrong even though i have nothing against the whole abortion thing.

**EDIT**

oh and i dont think abortions have any cons as long as its done early... i just dont think it should be used as a form of birth control. (except mabye the effect on the womans psyke but thats a liability thing)

con for the vesectomies is the fact that its only reversable if the docter is present. this might seem a little far fetched but you just never know what could happen, war breaks out (in which case you prob shouldnt have a kid just then ), asteroid smacks into earth or the most realistic thing:

when you have the first operation it was free or you had the money... mabye the second wont be free or you wont have the money... THAT would suck

[Juni Ori]

DakaSha, on Sep 26 2005, 11:02 AM, said:

when it comes to abortions i think they should be paid by the goverment in specific cases (rape, incest, medical problems...way to underage (i dont think saying "im 16 i should get it for free" is legit. first off its natural to have kids at that age and second at 16 you should have the brains to watch out))

There's one point I totally forgot, thanks for reminding DakaSha, women are physically ready to have childs usually very much earlier than they are considered adults. What I've been wondering, is that in history there have been very young women (you'd say girls) have had children and they have kept them and raised them adults. Why it isn't anymore possible? Or is it? Does our culture somehow decelerate our growth, are we possibly too sheltered? I don't know, but perhaps this could be discussed about too?

Edit:

DakaSha said:

i just dont think it should be used as a form of birth control

Not primary, I agree, but if the accident happens, condom breaks or something, then yes, if necessary.

[DakaSha]

women are pretty much ready to have kids once they get thier period. that isnt always the case because sometimes women are just to small at that age for a problem free birth. but 300 000 years ago theyd (just speculation but it makes alot of sense) just send the girl who got her period to the village shaman or whatever and hed say: "ok shes ready to have some kids" or "nope... you guys gotta wait a bit longer sorry"

but so this is still on topic like i said i dont think being "young" is a reason to get away with screwing around, getting pregnant and then asking for the taxpayers to pay for the abortion that alot are against in the first place.

**EDIT**
yeah abortions should be legal @juni... just not without thinking about it. you can just pop a pill.... but you shouldnt just pop the kid.

[Tom Henrik]

Just a small comment to Juni.

The reason I think offering boys vasectomies as a form of ritual into adulthood is not because I don't have to wear a condom. I am still a virgin, and I don't know the first thing about how sex feels with our without a condom. All I know is that a LOT of men refuses to wear them as they claim it hurts the experience. Sure, most of these men (if not all) are jerks, but if they were sterile jerks, all the better for everyone. He wouldn't have to wear the condom and the girl wouldn't have to worry about pregnancy.

The main reason I think vasectomies is a brilliant idea, is that the girl doesn't have to take The Pill. The Pill is actually extremelly dangerous to many girls, and many develop cancer from it because they have used it regularly for tens of years. The Pill is nothing but a hormonal cocktail, and by putting that in the body you mess up the entire homonal balance in there. This have serious effect. You do not want to mess with the natural hormones in your body.

And there are less side-effects with a vasectomy, than with an abortion. And if the government payed the operation in full, I think that many men would have the operation done. (It's not only girls who are afraid of becoming parents before they regard themselves fit for having an baby. A quick vasectomy takes away that fear, and leaves the guy fully capable sexually. And when he feels like parenting, he can reverse the operation.)

The only really huge side-effect of a vasectomy is that the surgeon can mess up and you might end up permanently sterile. However... the more vasectomies the surgeons take, the more familiar they become with the routine, and the less accidents happen. And when an accident do happen, it is mostly caused by the man for letting the symptomes go unnoticed. I am talking about a burning sensation in the groin, stinging pain and blood / sperms in the urine. If the man goes to the doctor early with these symptomes, it can be fixed. But most men go with these symptomes for weeks even months, until the pain is unbearable, before they even consider talking to the doctor. At that time there is nothing that can be done.

[Puffin]

DakaSha, on Sep 26 2005, 11:20 AM, said:

women are pretty much ready to have kids once they get thier period

I started periods on my 11th birthday. No way I was ready then, pal
11-12 year old kid is in NO way ready to raise up a kid. Kids can't raise kids. You need to be mature enough to teach your child.
EDIT: Physically, I wasn't ready either when I started my periods. I didn't have hips then, for example. My body at that time just couldn't've handled a baby.

--
Some might say "the girl's parents will just help and raise it".
Well, if I came home today; "Mooooom? I'm pregnant!".. She'd freak out. She would never quit her job to look after her grandchild and let me carry on with my education.
Some parents (grandparents) do, but many would never. And that's not because they don't love their kid (grandkid), it's because they also have a life. Something they're maybe not ready to sacrifise for a kid that isn't really wanted anyways.

Many women/girls/whatever have dreams they've been working on forever. And maybe a kid just doesn't fit in there. Should that person be forced to have the kid? I don't think so. crapola happens.


Oh, and another thing:
I think the morning-after pill should be discussed more in society. Many girls/women don't even know it exists. And getting it can be very very stressful, you have to be interviewed by the pharmasist-person, and the pill is rather expensive. It should be more accessible, although it should not be used as an every-day contraception.

Edited by Puffin, 26 September 2005 - 11:59 AM.