72 replies to this topic

[Tulac]

Quote

I mean, feel free to scoff and feel uncomfortable about their lifestyle, you don't have to be homosexual or even attempt to understand it, but anyone who says that they don't deserve the same rights, recognition, and respect as heterosexuals is basically saying they're less than human.

This is the problem, you see the they equalize the first part of the sentence with the second part, meaning that if you don't like their lifestyles, you are called a homophobe.

[Potatoe]

Juni Ori, on Mar 15 2007, 04:47 PM, said:

DD, doesn't democracy base on bigger groups will? Where goes the line of oppression? And as many occasions in history have proven, enlightment and affecting to people's minds works far better than rougher demonstrations etc. Thus I think open activism is actually quite naive, as it definitely always causes also negative effect.

Daka, even still I don't think we're off-topic. N-word is actually so "made-up-derogatory" word, that I even yet can't quite understand how it is possible. Why don't we white get upset when they call us names? Many of them are insulting. No, we get insulted, but if we react, we are called rascists. The balance has gone very odd: in truth, there is no equity, but colored people can freely call us what they want and we must keep our mouths shut. Okay, taken a bit into extreme, but it is true.

Unlike n-word, g-word doesn't even have long historical linguistic base and thus I think it should be considered more insulting. Even more, it has stained totally useful word and its meaning. Is this right? N-word has clear meaning, referring to person skin-color - which in I can't see anything wrong. Here is also huge defect: we can get sued calling Russians with certain r-word (let's keep it this way just for my own legal sake ), which definitely refers to "Rus" and is in use in sooooooo many languages I can't even count that far. Here: evil bad diabolic word - say it and stain yourself! I want to ask: WTF?

Edit: Btw, seems like my moment was pretty short...

I agree with you there.. Been wondering the same thing..

[taikara]

@Tulac: Uhh, right, if you say so. You know, I never said anything about homophobia in this entire thread. For one thing, it's a stupidly misused pop psychology buzz word that is effectively meaningless. In fact, the term has only been used twice in this entire thread - once by Beef, referring to people who aren't homophobic using gay slurs as a form of colloquial jargon, and once by you in your last post, somehow insinuating that the desire for equality (which, btw, is a concept that can be applied to many minority groups, including various races and cultures, women, etc., and not just gays) is the same thing as calling someone against that equality homophobic (if I understand you correctly, anyway, which I won't assume I have - that's just the closest I could come to figuring out what you mean by your response. I mean, you're obviously replying to me, but as I pointed out, I haven't said word one about homophobia. Although you did say "they," but I'm the one who's saying it, so sorries, I dunno what you're getting at).

But just to make sure I'm being clear, I wouldn't call that homophobia, I would refer to it as egocentric (or potentially ethnocentric, dependent on whether it's a culturally held value as opposed to a personally held value) elitism. You see, devaluating someone else's lifestyle choices is making the assumption that your choices are somehow better. They aren't, necessarily - they're just different choices.

[Tulac]

But that's what I'm saying if you say anything against gay people, you suddenly denominate their rights, even if it's just not liking the way they promote their lifestyle (because parades are just that, you can't tell me a guy in an S&M suit is here to make a statement about anyones rights it's just not serious and I can't perceive it as a serious attempt to do anything) etc. But hey you can't like everyones lifestyles I don't like lifestyle of the local mafia men, and their children especially, I don't like the lifestyle of some other people, if it doesn't suit me and I don't like it doesn't mean that I'm an ethnocentric elitist. It is my choice to not like it after all.

[Juni Ori]

Tai, you apparently have strong need for the truth, why not search it from yourself? Or are you just using this metaphor trying to take over others? Truth is different to everybody. Our perspectives of equality, perfect world etc differ a lot. Of course Tulac's choises a better, in his opinion, in his truth. My truth is closer to Tulac's, though they aren't identical even in this particular issue. Truth is, there is no truth but what you make of it.

[Potatoe]

I'm going to have to side with Juni and Tulac here. I don't like the fact that everyone has to like everything, and if they don't, you are called racist/homophobic/etc. That's taking one of our rights called freedom of speech, free tought, or what ever it is.

[taikara]

Tulac, on Mar 17 2007, 03:09 AM, said:

But that's what I'm saying if you say anything against gay people, you suddenly denominate their rights, even if it's just not liking the way they promote their lifestyle (because parades are just that, you can't tell me a guy in an S&M suit is here to make a statement about anyones rights it's just not serious and I can't perceive it as a serious attempt to do anything) etc. But hey you can't like everyones lifestyles I don't like lifestyle of the local mafia men, and their children especially, I don't like the lifestyle of some other people, if it doesn't suit me and I don't like it doesn't mean that I'm an ethnocentric elitist. It is my choice to not like it after all.

Actually, that's not what I'm saying at all.

As I said before (and those who are observant will notice I'm repeating myself in different words): feel free to not like it or them all you want, just don't spit in their faces, physically harm or otherwise violate them, or attempt to act against their rights.

It would be NICE if people would be a little more considerate about their choice of language, I think it would make the world a better place, but I think people have the right to think and feel what they want, be a jerk if they want, and they have a right to say what they want, if they're willing to deal with the potential consequences of being considered a jerk, a bigot, getting fired from their job, getting punished in instances there are rules against it, whatever. If all of your friends and co-workers and peers are heterosexual anti-gay, then I guess you're good to go if you want to gay-bash without consequence. But life isn't really like that, and there are potentially people you may offend that you don't want to offend by speaking badly about gays (or any other group) - but that's your choice.

Juni: whatever, mang.

[Tulac]

That was never the point Tai, we all know that. It was about gay activism which is done in a totally wrong fashion IMO, and has an contra effect, it makes me not care about their rights and problematics.

[Juni Ori]

Activist can also be considered by some as a jerk and bigot. And some activists get punished for breaking the rules. Point being, there will always be people who think you're a jerk and whatever.

Tulac, you are so right. In my case, they have made me care less. People have their own problems and issues to worry, they don't necessarily want to hear more problems and issues. I'm one of them, I have only certain amount of love to share. I share it selectively.

[taikara]

Tulac, on Mar 17 2007, 10:09 AM, said:

That was never the point Tai, we all know that. It was about gay activism which is done in a totally wrong fashion IMO, and has an contra effect, it makes me not care about their rights and problematics.

I suppose I got off track, then.

I'm still afraid I don't know what you mean about gay activism done in a wrong fashion - unlike certain groups of anti-abortion activists, who blow up abortion clinics and the like, I don't know any instances of gay activists doing something truly harmful. I mean, there's a marked difference between waving around a sign or having a parade, and using a bomb to get your point across.

But I'm wondering if it's just gay activism, or ALL activism that makes you feel that way, and I think that's where we're getting our wires crossed. You keep referring to gay activists having a contradictory effect, and giving examples referring to gay activists - so, it makes me wonder why that group in particular.

And yes, activists can be considered jerks, they have just as much right to say assinine things as anyone else. Wouldn't it be grand if people just shut their traps unless they had something nice to say? Then maybe no one would be considered a jerk

[Tulac]

Gay Parades. As I already said guys in S&M suits don't really give me a message about how gay rights are being violated.

[DakaSha]

taikara, on Mar 17 2007, 03:45 PM, said:

I'm still afraid I don't know what you mean about gay activism done in a wrong fashion - unlike certain groups of anti-abortion activists, who blow up abortion clinics and the like, I don't know any instances of gay activists doing something truly harmful. I mean, there's a marked difference between waving around a sign or having a parade, and using a bomb to get your point across.

But I'm wondering if it's just gay activism, or ALL activism that makes you feel that way, and I think that's where we're getting our wires crossed. You keep referring to gay activists having a contradictory effect, and giving examples referring to gay activists - so, it makes me wonder why that group in particular.

i know im kinda just butting into your guys' discussion but thats one of the points. if we/me/he/anybody doesnt like gays, doesnt like thier way of life and/or doesnt like thier form of activism then who are you to say anything about it? if you have the right to say thats wrong then i have the same right to say that gays are well... gay.

I personannly DONT like flamboyant gays lifestyle and i despise thier gay parades.. but im completly against them having thier rights taken away. they can (and should be able to) do whatever they want but as tulac said i dont want to be called homophobe just because i dont agree (which you havnt said no... alot of others would/have). and thier parades make me just like them less so its bad activism because basicaly: if you dont like gays... those parades are just gonna make you want to shoot them. they come across to me as if they are just saying: "im gay and i can do what i want so shut up... hmpf" thats not activism thats just being a kid

edit: btw i have nothing AT ALL against gays. as i said i have something against flamboyant gays. just so i dont come across as a gay hater

(but if i was id have all the right to be one as long as i left them alone )

oh and i understand a flamboyant gay as those dudes that act more like women then women and have chicken heads and call me honey and stick up thier nose and dance gay and talk about anal sex and *male genital* size all day and act like im stupid because im not into *male genital*. basicaly the stereotype (just cause its a stereotype doesnt mean it doesnt exist... ive seen alot of people like that believe me... actually even some of them were cool but alot are so damn arrogant and you can tell thier whole world revolves around them being gay... argh i hate it)

just in case im using the word wrong

[Juni Ori]

I at least have something against all flag-waving activism, not only gays. Well, gays are here pretty nicely fit in to society, they don't have any needs to wave flags and go marching. And so be it. Only issue is this forever continuing discussion about their rights of adoption.

[DeathDude]

Think the main idea here is ya don't have to like the parades and whatnot, just accept it, accept the rights and whatnot and let it be from there. Sure there will be groups, usually religious that will try to fight against the rights such as marriage, adoption or whatnot, but again its infringing on their rights, and the majority should not always have that power to control a minority.

As with gay activisms think point of many of them is not to promote the culture, think thats how it is can be perceived, its just mainly to get people thinking on the issues they are fighting for, once you get people thinking on them, you may gather more support, and its just to continue to raise awareness to the issue, it can get buried underneath a lot of the news that happens each day, so thats why its done.

[taikara]

@Tulac: Yeah, that's a bit over the top, and I can see how you'd be uncomfortable with it (I've never actually seen that, and the gays I know would be pissed off about it), but in that case, how do you feel about prostitutes doing the same thing (sans the media, of course)? I don't see anyone complaining about prostitutes pedalling their wares in public (not including the Christian Right, who tend to publically naysay it and privately solicit it)

Still, I think S&M outfits are way better than violence.

(Well, unless there's a lot of cellulite involved *gag*)

@Daka: That's the beauty of it, I have just as much right to confront you about anti-gay speech as you have to make it (again considering the potential consequences).

But my personal issue is only the rights of gays (legal marriage, adoption, equality), not whether you like gays or not.

And for the record, I'd have an issue with a gay person who tried to force his lifestyle choice on someone who is straight just as much as I have an issue with a straight person trying to force his lifestyle on someone who's gay. It's just that here in the US, at least, it's still the latter. At least, I have never known, seen, heard of, or read an incident of a gay person trying to claim homosexuality as more valid than heterosexuality. Many gays are still afraid of coming out of the closet here for fear of repercussion (and potentially violent  repercussion). Those who do choose to come out of the closet have face the inequality of being gay.

If I seem vehemently anti-anti-gay about this issue, it's because in my experience, the straights are a lot more volatile about it. I was violently attacked in college, most likely because of my connection with the gay community. I was working on an ethnography of the gay-straight interaction there (thesis project), and straights were very, very pissed at me. That attack was the reason I took a semester off (and therefore ended up not being able to return due to lack of fundage - my dad was pissed at me for taking a semester off, and he's anti-gay, too, so he kind of sided with the attackers ).