72 replies to this topic

[Juni Ori]

DD, doesn't democracy base on bigger groups will? Where goes the line of oppression? And as many occasions in history have proven, enlightment and affecting to people's minds works far better than rougher demonstrations etc. Thus I think open activism is actually quite naive, as it definitely always causes also negative effect.

Daka, even still I don't think we're off-topic. N-word is actually so "made-up-derogatory" word, that I even yet can't quite understand how it is possible. Why don't we white get upset when they call us names? Many of them are insulting. No, we get insulted, but if we react, we are called rascists. The balance has gone very odd: in truth, there is no equity, but colored people can freely call us what they want and we must keep our mouths shut. Okay, taken a bit into extreme, but it is true.

Unlike n-word, g-word doesn't even have long historical linguistic base and thus I think it should be considered more insulting. Even more, it has stained totally useful word and its meaning. Is this right? N-word has clear meaning, referring to person skin-color - which in I can't see anything wrong. Here is also huge defect: we can get sued calling Russians with certain r-word (let's keep it this way just for my own legal sake ), which definitely refers to "Rus" and is in use in sooooooo many languages I can't even count that far. Here: evil bad diabolic word - say it and stain yourself! I want to ask: WTF?

Edit: Btw, seems like my moment was pretty short...

[DeathDude]

Depends on what is being advocated though, if you have no one doing an open demonstration, than how else can a certain message be spread. Luckily with technology such as the interweb, it is much easier than in the past to set up these rallies or demonstrations. Don't think violence or being rough is the way to go though as it does have a negative detriment to a cause, and will just get individuals more against a particular cause in most cases.

There is that delicate political balance that does come into affect, with certain issues and that politicians use to gain votes, when a certain issue affects a majority, thats why it is necessary to have the courts speak and rule on certain issues which may be affecting a minority, that can be detrimental to them. Its like the environment right now, its the issue thats most important and all the political parties are jumping all over it, trying to be all pro environment now.

[Juni Ori]

Interesting first two sentences.

Anyways, you don't have to do demonstrations to spread the word. As I said earlier, it also causes negative effect. Most important rule in every competition - from opinion spreading to open war: don't let your enemy know what you're doing.

[taikara]

@Daka: I'm much more concerned with the f-word than the g-word.

Tulac said:

Another thing about gay activism, what would you say if someone would be in love with his sister and have sex with her, would you condemn that?

For one thing, that has absolutely nothing to do with gay activism, unless the siblings are of the same sex. I think Juni's all over that one, though, so I'll refrain from comment.

About the analogy made with emergency medical services and treating only the silent - it's a bad analogy, because prejudice isn't like a trauma situation, it's more like a virulent disease. It doesn't just happen one day, and people either make it, or don't make it. It's something that people can painfully live with for their entire lives, and it can be crippling and harmful, and it spreads not only via bigotry and hate, but also via apathy to and acceptance (however resigned) of that bigotry and hate. Just because people can "cry" about it doesn't mean they shouldn't be listened to or helped, or that measures shouldn't be taken to try to cure the disease.

I'm not one of the "activists" who will get up in arms and protest or hold demonstrations. I don't think having the media freak out and jump all over some celebrity's butt for using the n-word or f-word (or some other derogative)to the point they have to publically apologize is a good thing. Annoying the general public and embarrassing individuals for their actions can be as harmful as it is helpful.

When someone uses a derogatory term in jocularity, it's pointless to try to explain to him why it's offensive - He'll likely never understand, as it doesn't bother him.

I think empathy is the best cure for apathy - if you can even imagine how it would feel if you were a member of a certain group experiencing prejudice, you'll be much more likely to be understanding of why it sucks.

[Tulac]

Yeah gay isn't even an insult f4g is and other bad words. In the same manner I think the n-word (n1gger) is an insult and not a name for a race, negro (which is different) is a name for the race so it is not a racial insult the n-word however is an insult in the same way a chimpanze would be an insult for a white person, gook for a yellow etc.
@Tai: It has lots to do, because if you forget about the biological problems (which Juni just won't) it is basically the same as gay, rare, socially less acceptable, but you said love is love.
I really don't care if people are gay or not, but through media gay people are basically sending me a message (and this is through different parades, tv shows etc.): "Look at me I'm gay, I'm so awesome, if you disagree with my way of life you're a homphobe." This is my impression, and even if they want to send out a different message to the world, this is the message I get.

[DakaSha]

wow i have to agree there... not ALL gays are like that but alot. at last the out of the closet ones. ive actuelly been put down as stupid for not being gay from  a couple people.

now that gives no one the right to insult people but if i want to call somebody a *twiggy* who isnt even gay then homosexuals should just shut up (i know this is a forum and there are rules but im talking about real life)

i wasnt thinking about the f-word... it is clearly an insult towards gays but it too is a word that people just use on an everyday basis (at least alot of people do)

i generally think words are meaningless exept if used as a direct insult but yeah gotta go with the flow and all that

[DeathDude]

Yeah think with the way the media portrays things can be a bit misleading, you have to look past the media, because 9/10 times the mainstream media will overblown an issue and just make more of a mess than they should. Think there needs to be a delicate balance with the use of the words, not so that they are so overblown in their use that the meaning is lost, just have to look past that and actually see it for yourself if you can, with all this stereotyping going on, only way you'll actually see the issue for what it is.

Its like back in the early 90's with music videos, MTV was yelling at metal artists to censor their videos, (check out the controversy of A Tout Le Monde by Megadeth, which in reality there is none) and yet all the rap and hip hop artists with their gang glorification and gun waving, violence and so on around didn't get a peep about censoring their videos is that fair? (Note not saying all rap artists but some who fell into that category) Just one area where there exist double standards, much more that can also be brought up.

[BeefontheBone]

The fact that it's mainstream to use "gay" (or *twig-bundle* or whatever) as a derogatory term even without understanding it or meaning that homosexuality is bad is the POINT. People I know who aren't at all homophobic use it and it does irk me - an ex of mine did it all the time and it made me cringe every time.

I'm in favour of gay adoption too - anyone who doesn't think that a loving, stable partnership of two people is better for a child than impersonal, changeable, uncertain state care regardless of that couple's genders is impossible for me to understand, particularly if they claim to have no general objection to homosexuality. The debate over Section 28 over here a couple of years ago (essentialy, it was an article of a law which banned (or possibly lifted a ban on, I forget which way round it was) the promotion of homosexuality in schools) drove me up the wall - it's not like anyone wanted to promote homosexuality (although a lot of people want to promote heterosexuality...) - I'd suggest that openly homosexual people are almost universally of the opinion that one's sexuality is not in any way something one has a choice about.
For what it's worth, most gay men (certainly the ones I know) are annoyed by the over-the-top campness that is the gay stereotype. My housemate in particular detests it (although he's hardly a "typical" gay man). There's a wonderful episode or two from the first series of Extras which derived a large amount of beautifully-observed humour from that.

[taikara]

@Beef: Exactly!

It used to be the same way with the n-word, btw. "N-rigging," for example, was a common jocular term for hobbling together a shoddy fix out of crappy materials. Would you get away with saying it in mixed racial company? I don't think so - much the same way you'd get a really poor reaction if you said any version of the f-word in a mixed sexual orientation crowd. And, btw, while it's fairly obvious when someone is black, you can't always tell if someone's gay by looking or speaking to them, so using terms like that publically is just lame.

Most of the homosexual "propaganda" you see on TV is just the media's hype, very few gay people are so blatant about it, and I don't actually know any who are like that. I just recently found out that one of my best friends in high school was gay (I found out while checking out old friends' pages on MySpace)- he probably never told anyone because he was scared to death of the reaction of his peers, and considering our high school, I don't blame him for not telling anyone (though I am sad he didn't feel safe in telling me).

Sure, when they're around people they're comfortable with (and are comfortable with it themselves), they might be more open about the fact that they're homosexual, but it's the same way with heterosexuals - they talk to their buddies about their relationships and sexual activities. It's not like I'm going to walk up to some stranger on the street and tell her about my sexual preferences, and guess what? Gay people don't do that, either.

Heterosexual people tend to be way more blatant about their heterosexual relationships in public, as well - how often do you see gay people holding hands or PDAing all over the place in public compared to heterosexuals?

And if there are homosexual people who march in gay pride parades or display rainbows, or openly discuss their sexual orientation, so what? A lot of that sort of thing is a reaction to the persecution and prejudice gays do receive from "normals". Everyone wants to be accepted, and it's not hurting anyone for them to take some pride in who they are.

[Tulac]

I don't know I have a feeling like gay parades are more about promoting the gay way of life, rather than speaking about gay rights or what not, it has a contra effect, at least with me.

[BeefontheBone]

Quote

Everyone wants to be accepted, and it's not hurting anyone for them to take some pride in who they are.

Precisely. Would women marching to demand the vote have made you less likely to want them to have it? It's the same thing - not to treat everyone as equals (in general terms, not specifics) is fundamentally wrong, and very definitely worth making a fuss about. If you're straight, you're straight, if you're not you're not, whatever floats your boat. If you treat someone differently because of it, that's when I'll have a problem.

[PrejudiceSucks]

Ah, activism.

In favour of it myself, although to be quite honest, unless it's what the government wants to hear from the public, it doesn't make the slightest bit of difference.

Example - 3 million people congregate on London to denounce the Iraq war... and it goes ahead regardless, the government doesn't the beginnings of accept the legitimacy of the march and so on and so forth.

100,000 people go to the Live Aid gigs and "yeah, yeah, exactly, we're reflecting the public mood towards being charitable yadda yadda".



Not that I don't love the cause of helping out Africa and I certainly support extra spending on foreign aid, but when we're spending more money on Challenger tanks and Trident replacement than on clean water and disaster relief, despite public opposition to this, it's all gone a bit wrong for me.

[taikara]

Tulac, on Mar 15 2007, 05:52 PM, said:

I don't know I have a feeling like gay parades are more about promoting the gay way of life, rather than speaking about gay rights or what not, it has a contra effect, at least with me.

I don't get that. I mean, sure, if all the caucasian, christian, affluential males got together and had themselves a heyday and pat each other on the back about being caucasian, christian affluential males, I might be like, "what?"

But the thing is, like women, like blacks, like any other minority, gays still don't have equal footing in our country. It's not lifestyle promotion if their lifestyle isn't on par with the majority- because there's a reason for them to want mainstream acceptance and equal rights as the majorities. For example, gay marriages are still on the line, meaning that gay partners can't benefit from the same protective laws that heterosexual spouses can (tax breaks, etc). There are still people in our government who would go out of their way to make sure that homosexuals don't get those rights, more than any other minority at the moment.

I mean, feel free to scoff and feel uncomfortable about their lifestyle, you don't have to be homosexual or even attempt to understand it, but anyone who says that they don't deserve the same rights, recognition, and respect as heterosexuals is basically saying they're less than human.

Really, no wonder they try to promote awareness (not the same thing as conversion, btw) in order to protect their status. I'd be pissed off if someone tried to tell me I wasn't deserving of the same basic rights as my fellow countrymen, too.

[Juni Ori]

@Tai: The analogy actually works and exactly the medical treatment way. The largest difference is that the victims are tortured, not suddenly injured. I recently used phrase "don't let your enemy know what you're doing" and it fits here too - from the other side. If you're being oppressed long enough, you either shout and rage and make yourself visible - unlike those who have patience: they're either far more dangerous acting underground or then they are those who'll take all and never whine - until they snap. This however does not mean those shouldn't be treated, who cry. The very same thing as in accidents: first help those who are in immediate danger to die, then check out those who are lying unconscious, then go to the ones crying. About empathy to cure apathy, it may help, but it must be right kind of, so the apathy one doesn't take it as pity.

@DD: Indeed the media is irresponsibly exaggerating issues. This is something we should stop, but what can you do? Until the weak-minded are not so scandal hunger, there isn't much we can.

@Tai: I think you really have something against anti-gay. There's nothing wrong, but guess why I said that? You really are defending them... but against whom here?

@Beefy: The fact is that when women demanded their rights, they had done a lot of work before they rallied. And no, their rally wouldn't had made me now any less likely to want their rights - but then was then and no one of us knows how we would've reacted with different social environmen and there was a lot of active anti-women-rights activists. The hour was barely right enough to women to rise, however it was a long fight. And it is automatical we treat different peoples different way, depending on what they are. If you suddenly come to know that your friend is something other you thought, your attitude will change. How much, is the question, not do you treat someone differently. The change of how you treat him/her after that may radically change, but does he/she notice it and does it affect your relationship is another question.

@Tai: Civilize the ignorant: could you list what changes in your opinion should be made to make homosexuals equal to heterosexuals in the States?

[DeathDude]

Plenty we can do, spread the message. Just because something is happening and just because some people accept it, educate them to further their minds, to look beyond what is said in a newspaper and whats on the net related to issues. Even just small steps that will make them think is a good way for least getting others thinking, if we do that than essentially least you might not get through to everyone, but you will get through to some people, who may spread that message further.

Also even if there was a change with your friend that you say is radical, not always will you suddenly think differently, guess it can depend on what happens, but nevertheless it varies from person to person, still think there is a long way to go with some issues (like women's rights, fight still not over, still not getting equal pay for example, or being widely accepted in all trades of work) it just depends on whether you will be a passive watcher and accept or question a situation, just because something is the norm doesn't always make it right and it does not have to mean you have to become Mr/Ms Activist leader, even if you can see about it and talk about it least it can get others thinking.