41 replies to this topic

[a1s]

I don't think it's cheating at all. the Grimm are part of the german folk, as such they can write down any interpretation of the story they want. in fact they could retell Illiad in their own words and it would still count (though that does fall into a "moral dark area").

[BeefontheBone]

On the utopia/dystopia theme, if you've not read A Brave New World, you definitely should.

[Sinke]

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You thought Alice in Wonderland was innocent and non-weird? Read it again. Carefully.

"Alice in Wonderland" is a master-piece because it is a story you can read to your kids before they go to sleep- but also a work with very complex theoretical system behind the whole story. It literally touches surrealism sometimes, and the line "off with their heads" in the book is more satyrical then the whole computer game.

While I personally think that a serious approach to the idea of Alice ending up in the hospital would be interesting in artistic terms- the game we are talking about, ( I didn't play it but from what I learned ) is a typical low-life killer rubbish. It doesn't have any artistic value, and I don't think there is much quality in it's satire. Am I getting it too seriously? Maybe, but titles as such make us gamers seem like maniacs. Carol wouldn't like that, I assure you. For Heaven's sake, he had his part of mental problems, but he certainly wasn't a killer and he would probably be very mad about this. Walt Disney personally burned the cartoon which somebody made just for fun in the studio where his characters have sex. That is because these people felt obligated to guard their morals and values they gave in their art.


Insert On-topic smiley here

From what I heard from quite serious sources- the original "Snowhite and Seven dwarfs " was a much longer story. We only know the first part. Later Snowhite becomes evil and gets in murder plots etc. Greens knew original story, but they took only the first part.

For serious academical essay, I advise you not to quote computer games. I personaly think they are a new form of art, but if you are going to citate anything then let it not be "Alice". Games such as "Discworld" or "Gateway" ( available on this site) were made by very famous writters.

I advise works of Voltaire for reading about satyre.

[a1s]

Sinke, on Dec 9 2006, 10:16 PM, said:

From what I heard from quite serious sources- the original "Snowhite and Seven dwarfs " was a much longer story. We only know the first part. Later Snowhite becomes evil and gets in murder plots etc. Greens knew original story, but they took only the first part.

are you sure you're not talking about the "Fables" series of graphic novels? SWat7D is an  Aarne-Thompson type 709 and as such has to end with the prince marying the girl...

Sinke, on Dec 9 2006, 10:16 PM, said:

For serious academical essay, I advise you not to quote computer games. I personaly think they are a new form of art, but if you are going to citate anything then let it not be "Alice".

here again I wish to disagree- it makes a perfect theme for an essay on a number of topics in both art and (mostly) psychology. the reason why I would prefer "AM Alice" to such masterpieces as Death Gate, is that it doesn't just [re]tell a story as a book would. It makes a serious attempt to change the genre, weather it succeeds or not is for the author of the essay to decide, but it's a topic for thought.

[A. J. Raffles]

Moogle isn't actually writing an "academic essay", though (for one thing he isn't even at university yet), he's writing an essay because he wants to, but if he were writing an academic essay, I'd agree with Sinke that computer games wouldn't usually be considered an appropriate topic.

Oh, and talking of utopias: Edward Bellamy's Looking Backward is another great text to read.

PS: If by "original" you mean the Grimm's version of Snow White, then no, it's nothing like that. If I remember correctly, it ends with the evil queen dancing herself to death.

[Sinke]

Brothers Grimm were collecting stories which were certain folklore tradition of Germany. They were  searching for stories for children, mostly. A collegue of mine researched the topic and said there are some bizzare facts about Snow White. It seems the story which was going around in Germany at that time was much more bizzare and much more violent.  

As for "Alice"- the computer game doesn't even try to change the genre or anything like it. Honestly, they just attempted to make an original fps with quite perverse topic. I must admit that the idea of Alice ending in psychiatric hospital is quite interesting in artistic terms, but after that  in game you just go around killing wonderlanders. Not much of aesthetics and art.

It's like wondering what Charlie Brown seems like today. Is he a man in depression, drinking pills ? If you wish to tell that story, you need to step into it with a lot of research and artistic virtue. And care, of course- Brown is a classic.

Games are interesting form of entertainment. I must admit they are intriguing me for theoretical analysis, but that is another story.

[Moogle]

Yea, just for fun.

Anyways, yea, if it were an actualt essay including Alice wouldn't really be that great of an idea...
A. Its old-ish
B. Its a game
C. There isn't any book version or written script / plot to it as I know of

But, like I said, its an interesting idea.

Anyways, as I was coming home from teh mall, I was thinking maybe what I could do is write an essay on Utopia vs. Dystopia and have the original works (Wonderland, Oz, Non "Grimm" fairy tales) be the "Utopia" (yes, they're not actual utopias, especially with Wonderland as its been pointed, but its Highschool, sophmore, so its not like the teacher is gonna expect me to dwell too deeply into it...) and the other versions (Alice, Wicked, Grimm) be the "Dystopia".

Just an idea, maybe I'd get extra credit or w/e along with it, or not, doesn't really matter. Probly cut out Alice cause of teh 3 reasons.

And,  
I don't really see how Alice is "trash". While I guess I can understand how you might not like it because of how it changed the story to something "bad" (personally I love the idea, but can understand how other couldn't), I still don't see how its trash... When pretty much every popular "big" game coming out theese days is either a sequel or some "Aliens vs. humans" type theme thats been done before countless time, its nice to see something that is actually semi original. I mean, Alice is old, and not with all the sequels, but think about it, there aren't that many "big" games that weren't "big" for their story and gameplay. And most of them that were, have been made into countless sequels (sup FF).

Edit: Funny to see how my one question has split into like 3 different topics of disscussion =) Not that I'm complaining, mind you.

[a1s]

Moogle, on Dec 9 2006, 11:54 PM, said:

A. Its old-ish
B. Its a game
C. There isn't any book version or written script / plot to it as I know of

A. not as old as the book. in fact not as old as any of the books mentioned in this thread (I haven't actualy checked, so if it's not true, just read "any" as "most").
B. touche'
C. well there's the "save the world" (wonderland) kind of plot. mind you the writing and plot is at least as good as most of the action fims you see on TV, or do they "have no plot" either? (from a literary perspective I mean).
Still, making and essay of AM Alice is a challenge, it's not something I recommend to do for the mark, but definetly something to do for fun (if writing essays if fun for you that is).

I don't see how either of your pics are utopias/dystopias but I guess you'll find some way to support that view. BTW, are you going to type up your essay? People like essays that are printed and easy to read... plus I'm pretty sure we'd like to read it when it's ready.  

[Moogle]

Yes but what I mean by old is that its old, not as old as the book, but its only really known within the gaming community, I highly doubt that if I were to go and talk about it with my English teacher she'd know what I was talking about. oO

The book is older, but also very well known thanks to the disney version.

Yea, threes the plot but I mean there isn't a printed version that I can actually refer to.

And yea I'm not sure about the picks either now that i think about it , just thinking of how to unify it under one topic oO

And I dunno when I'l type it, probyl sometime after Christmas...normally I sit in my room for 2 hours after "bed time" and do random useless activities so once I get a laptop I'l probly use it and write up on random junk I find interesting oO

[Sinke]

Well that's my point, Alice the computer game is not worth mentioning anywhere, especially not in the essay. If you wish to leave a good idea about yourself, don't put it in essay. Compared to original story, it is trash, and has no value for which you would mention the game in the essay. It's simply not worth mentioning.

[taikara]

That's weird, I thought American McGee's Alice was considered a masterpiece game, nevermind being a classic of its genre. By modern standards, a bit dated, sure, but not many people would go so far as to call it "trash."

Personally, I don't feel it's too far a stretch to base a macabre fantasy FPS on the original Alice. There's but a razor's edge between a good trip and a bad trip, after all. I found the original creepy and disturbing enough as it was, really.

I don't see why it being a game makes it taboo as an academic subject, I mean, there's a ever-growing movement of games becoming a part of mainstream culture, and they ARE a story-telling medium, as well as an artistic medium. I think it would be rather edgy of you to include a game in your analysis.

[Juni Ori]

Sub-culture of gaming has already it's first professors, actually. Can't remember where I read it, but possibly from BBC's homepage some time ago, possibly years... (or then I've made it up in my dreams )

[Moogle]

Sinke, on Dec 10 2006, 01:44 AM, said:

Well that's my point, Alice the computer game is not worth mentioning anywhere, especially not in the essay. If you wish to leave a good idea about yourself, don't put it in essay. Compared to original story, it is trash, and has no value for which you would mention the game in the essay. It's simply not worth mentioning.

On the other hand...I hardly care if my english teacher has a good idea of me or not:whistle:

[A. J. Raffles]

Sinke, on Dec 10 2006, 12:45 AM, said:

They were  searching for stories for children, mostly.

I'll have to contradict you there, I'm afraid. There's a reason why their collection was called Kinder- und Hausmärchen.

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A collegue of mine researched the topic and said there are some bizzare facts about Snow White. It seems the story which was going around in Germany at that time was much more bizzare and much more violent.

Never heard of that, but even then, that's the whole point, isn't it? Perhaps there were several versions of the stories going around, and they decided for one of them. And perhaps it happened to be the less violent one, but that doesn't really signify anything. There are plenty of other tales in the collection that are quite violent, it's just that those are the ones that tend to be left out in modern editions (which are usually abridged and modernised). The idea of the Grimms' tales as stuff aimed primarily at children was constructed afterwards, really.

[Juni Ori]

The only ones who are terrified about the violence is the parents - kids actually find it funny.