134 replies to this topic

[Flop]

It's worth to remember that Denmark was actually part of the original coalition that invaded Iraq, and that we have had a military presence there since day one (albeit a small one). Frankly, I don't think there's any way the Danish government could support the USA more than it already does.

It's interesting, however, that the Danish peoples party (which is the party I was talking about before), is now rather upset about what they perceive to be a lack of support from Britain and USA, and are considering withdrawing their support for a continued military presence in Iraq, without which the government no longer has a majority in that matter. I'm constantly surprised at just how populist that party is, they've been milking this whole thing all along, and according to opinion polls they've progressed quite a bit because of it.

[Puffin]

Flop, on Feb 6 2006, 02:32 PM, said:

It's interesting, however, that the Danish peoples party (which is the party I was talking about before), is now rather upset about what they perceive to be a lack of support from Britain and USA, and are considering withdrawing their support for a continued military presence in Iraq, without which the government no longer has a majority in that matter.

That makes a lot of sense to me. I scratch your back, and if you don't scratch mine back, I'll find my baseball bat.

And by the way things seem to be directing.. I think Denmark could use everything they've got at home.

[A. J. Raffles]

DakaSha, on Feb 6 2006, 02:02 PM, said:

it just happens that the arabs or muslims happen to have an extremly itchy trigger finger when it comes to their religion. one cant really condem them for it because its just the way they are brought up... but like i said i really dont care how they were brought up to believe and how to act. once their beliefs are directed towards us western nations (in an aggresive manner... they can say what they want for all i care) they are going too far period.

Well, the sad thing is of course that it isn't all muslims who are overreacting in that way, obviously. That's where we're being manipulated by the media again: the people we are shown on television are just the flag-burning lunatics, but there are plenty of others as well, who might have been upset by this whole thing, but who didn't resort to violence. I mean, heck, my granny is muslim - and quite a pious one at that - but I know she would never ever have associated herself with that sort of thing.

[DakaSha]

of course... thats actually the only real problem.

what i dont really get is why the non-crazy muslims arnt going out and protesting against THOSE people. THEY are making them look bad.. not some cartoon. its the lunatics who are going to be the end of the muslims.

[DeathDude]

Well some are probably are going out there, but not protesting I know here the Canadian National Muslim Congress is telling the media and it's members that this shouldn't be happening, that there is an overreaction going on, so yeah the media likes to skew the info like they always do.

[Sean]

It's an overreaction on the Muslim communitys part. Religion in any form is evil if followed to it's core. I see jesus cards/cartoons all the time, whats the bloody fuss about?

Not only that but signs like 'Kill all those that offend Islam'... these [Nasty Word(s)] are terrorists and should be strung up. Simple as.

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Well, the sad thing is of course that it isn't all muslims who are overreacting in that way, obviously. That's where we're being manipulated by the media again: the people we are shown on television are just the flag-burning lunatics, but there are plenty of others as well, who might have been upset by this whole thing, but who didn't resort to violence. I mean, heck, my granny is muslim - and quite a pious one at that - but I know she would never ever have associated herself with that sort of thing.

There's a large majority of muslims that have reacted in this way, as they always do. How often do Christians burn flags and threaten to behead people over poncy religious matters?

Religion is just...  

Some people find peace in religion, that's fine. Yet when followed to the 'hardcore' extent no matter what religion it is things get out of hand. I really don't understand why people chose to dedicate themselves to something they have no proof exsists.

[Stroggy]

The debate in Europe is a classic illustration of Huntington's theory.

As for angry muslim riots in the middle east; a lot of middle eastern countries have used cartoons in a way which would make Der Stürmer seem moderate. The amount of gratuitous antisemitism (note: not anti-zionism if you want to draw a difference)which is also mostly state sponsered (Syria) makes it difficult for me to feel with them in their moment of anger.

Here in Belgium the Muslim Executive (a sort of unifyied muslim body - a paradox if ever there was one) tried to defend their point of view by stating the cartoons remind them of cartoons from nazi germany. This was a rather weak but still defendable point of view. But then the Arab European league (an arab political party active in mostly Belgium and the Netherlands) decided to exercise their own freedom of speech by releasing cartoons questioning the holocaust.
Among them for example Anne Frank in bed with Hitler with Hitler saying "write this in your diary"

The fact of the matter is that the arab world frequently portrays the jews as hook-nosed global conspirators, the over persistent myth of blood libel (...) in more than just cartoons but also in books and films, which are usually state sponsored.
For example the mini series "The Horseman without a Horse" which is based on the Protocols of the Elders of Zion and "Zahra's Blue Eyes" which portrays the jews as trying to pass as aryans by transplanting the eyes of arab children unto their own children (an absurd idea based on the modern gene-based antisemitism, as both people are semites)
But never has an Israeli or a jew lashed back so violently as the muslims. I think that, like most "spontaneous" events in the middle east, this violent backlash was in no small way orchestrated by governments intent on shifting public attention away from their own troubled (Syria, Iran,...)

[Juni Ori]

DD said:

I think things are going to pick up as recent events like Hamas power in Palestine and now with Iran becoming even more defiant, situations in the middle east are going to escalate and I wouldn't be surprised if the States try to give it a go in Iran or even if Israel tries to go forward that way too.

That's something that I think quite possible actually. The Middle East has been for decades in some sort of readiness to seriously explode - not to mention situations where it has exploded: Beirut, 6 days war, etc. And it has always been battlefield.

A.J. said:

Well, the sad thing is of course that it isn't all muslims who are overreacting in that way, obviously.

Not yet, at least. Those few who incite uprisings may have enough listeners to cause some serious damage. And who knows how badly our media helps them?

Daka said:

THEY are making them look bad.. not some cartoon.

True and they're staining every muslim's reputation. Of course some people understand it and don't generalize, but some do. Only future will tell how patient people are in this issue.

Sean said:

There's a large majority of muslims that have reacted in this way, as they always do. How often do Christians burn flags and threaten to behead people over poncy religious matters?

Well, christians aren't in any way saints. The World War 2 and it's consequenses - such as hippie and generally peace movements - have only recently softened us to more "human" level. Where there's strong traditions and no mass media - at least free - and many old quarrels hassle everyday life - like in Middle East - such movements have no chance of spreading and therefore they can see worth of life in very different way.

Stroggy said:

The fact of the matter is that the arab world frequently portrays the jews as hook-nosed global conspirators, the over persistent myth of blood libel (...) in more than just cartoons but also in books and films, which are usually state sponsored.

They actually have quite strong basis to have issues against Jews and Israel. Remember that during World War II Middle East was mostly controlled by Great Britain and they actually established Israel to most profitable and prosperous area in Middle East. Which of course happens to be the source of their cult, religion, however you want to express it.

[A. J. Raffles]

Sean, on Feb 6 2006, 04:12 PM, said:

There's a large majority of muslims that have reacted in this way, as they always do. How often do Christians burn flags and threaten to behead people over poncy religious matters?

Something between 15 and 20 percent of the world population are muslim. There's simply no way that those people can be "the great majority", or there'd be buildings burning all over the place by now. I'm afraid you're overgeneralising there, and that's the central danger of this debate. Let's try to avoid that as far as possible.
There are violent Christian sects as well; they're not as newsworthy, that's all. But yes, Christians do behead people over poncy religious matters. It isn't as if Christianity had a history of being the most peaceful religion ever. To claim that Islam is more violent would be the pot calling the kettle black, really.
As for flag-burning, that's a popular pastime the world over, regardless of religions, so obviously there's no reason why Christians shouldn't be engaging in it.

Stroggy said:

The debate in Europe is a classic illustration of Huntington's theory.

Come again?

[Tulac]

A.J. Please  watch Syrian national television for one day(again I've heard stories from ym cousin that lived there that they glorified suicide bombers), and you'll see your words go to vain, it truly is the majority of Muslims in the Middle East that are like that, because they are brainwashed by their fanatical leaders...

[Stroggy]

Juni Ori, on Feb 6 2006, 06:19 PM, said:

They actually have quite strong basis to have issues against Jews and Israel. Remember that during World War II Middle East was mostly controlled by Great Britain and they actually established Israel to most profitable and prosperous area in Middle East. Which of course happens to be the source of their cult, religion, however you want to express it.

The anti-semitism within the muslim society predates the creation of Israel quite a few years.  Haj Amin Husseini (the Mufti of Jerusalem), for example, who was ppointed by the British in 1921 had strong ties with Nazi Germany and even visited Hitler himself in order to persuade him to extend his war to the middle east so that region could be "pure" as well. He also helped in the formation of a muslim Waffen SS composed mostly of Bosnian Muslims.

Furthermore I find it quite a twisted logic that questioning the holocaust and portraying jews as cannibals is allowed due to a political conflict, as these issues transcend the realm of politics and can only be labedled as sheer antisemitism. Can rascism in any form be condoned solely on the base of stating political opposition?
According to the logic shown by protestors in Syria these cartoons would give jews the right to set fire to the Syrian embassy. Thankfully Jews aren't as prone to violence as these mobs, and the harshest thing ever undertaken against these cartoons is the dreaded Strongly Worder Letter.

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Come again?huh.gif

The "Clash of Civilizations".

[DakaSha]

Hey stroggy i knew ive heard that name before. read that book too
i cant remember anything really because i read it when it came out but it was a great book.

i still have it here... mabye ill start reading it again tonight.

(oh and you guys should download some cartoons from iran... ive seen them.. you wouldnt believe it... if i find the link again ill post it here... for those who dont want to wait look on compfused... there is a link there.)

[Sean]

Okay, perhaps it isnt the 'majority' of the muslim culture but theres a substanial amount to cause concern. I support no religious entity as all in my opinion are flawd. However, out of all the religions I'm exposed to Islam always comes off worse. You can say thats the media influencing me but I've seen enough racist,homophobic,violent,uncivilizied Muslims to proove otherwise. Take my school for example. I don't see non muslims clumping together in groups of 50+ trying to look intimadating. On Eid for example we have a convoy of Muslim pupils rideing up and down outside school chanting '*meep* the honkeys' and other such slurs. Although there are a large amount of reasonable,kind etc Muslims that far outweigh the negative Muslims I still think that Islam seems to produce more socially isolated people than other religions.

Just my opinion.

[PrejudiceSucks]

Sean, on Feb 6 2006, 04:12 PM, said:

It's an overreaction on the Muslim communitys part. Religion in any form is evil if followed to it's core. I see jesus cards/cartoons all the time, whats the bloody fuss about?

Not only that but signs like 'Kill all those that offend Islam'... these [Nasty Word(s)] are terrorists and should be strung up. Simple as.

Quote

Well, the sad thing is of course that it isn't all muslims who are overreacting in that way, obviously. That's where we're being manipulated by the media again: the people we are shown on television are just the flag-burning lunatics, but there are plenty of others as well, who might have been upset by this whole thing, but who didn't resort to violence. I mean, heck, my granny is muslim - and quite a pious one at that - but I know she would never ever have associated herself with that sort of thing.

There's a large majority of muslims that have reacted in this way, as they always do. How often do Christians burn flags and threaten to behead people over poncy religious matters?

Religion is just...  

Some people find peace in religion, that's fine. Yet when followed to the 'hardcore' extent no matter what religion it is things get out of hand. I really don't understand why people chose to dedicate themselves to something they have no proof exsists.

They kill people over abortion. They launched the crusades. Those are poncy religious matters. What about David Koresh?

Also, if you're going "anyone who says 'death to the enemies of Islam' is a terrorist", you're just wrong. That's very, very general and you've obviously been massively swayed by the media. Sorry, but that's just true.

I had an argument with a Christian who was preaching irritatingly in the centre of town, about how for some reason they could say that "the word of men is stupidity to God" and yet try and convert people, when what they were saying was utter bull**** by that reasoning, and they started swearing like a nun at me, and they then punched me in the face.

A total nutter, really, but then they are in a very, very small minority of Christians. You can't tar everyone with the same brush, even if Charles Clark wants you to do that.

[Sean]

Okay, so your telling me the distribution of Violent Christian driven mass events and the distribution of Violent Muslim driven events is equal?

I'm not wrong on the terrorist issue. Promoting violence because of a disagreement of beliefs is terrorism. You are 'terrorizing' your oppisition into agreement with your own narrowminded views.

Relgion,Cultural ties and Identity should be removed from society. Then we wouldn't have such debates (Thats a joke)

Christians are just as bad, if you read my post carefully you would see that I said ALL religions are a source of evil.