17 replies to this topic

[BeefontheBone]

We seem to be getting a lot of discussion about Roguelikes (2 or 3 on the site so far and a lot of discussion in the forums) and describing them as "text-based2 isn't quite right - how abaout adding a Roguelike game category for them?

[DakaSha]

ill second that

[Triton]

I disagree because rougelikes are more RPG than most RPG video games.  Keyboard symbols aren't any less graphical than the latest current-gen console game; in fact, once you play a rougelike like ADoM long enough, your imagination takes over and those rows of green dots start to look like grassy fields, and the letter lowercase f or a brown & would strike fear in the hearts of anyone.

Besides, there are rougelikes that use pictures for graphics.  Have you played Castle of the Winds?

[DakaSha]

I think he just wanted to say that roguelikes are not "text based" games and so should have thier own category. i dont think RL's should be in the RPG section either because yes they are actually more RPGish in certain ways  then most "RPG's" but when people think about  RPG's they think about: The Elder Scrolls, Baldurs Gate, Fallout and the like...
You can't compare RL's to these games... most RL's have a random world or at least dungeon. MANY MANY items, spells and creatures, Perma-Death and Highscore-lists (being the two most fundamental differences in my opinion).
Also all (or most anyways) but ADoM are open source and are kinda like a "programing skills" showoff thing(Being able to wish, your clothes burning when attacked with fire-breath, freezing water with ice spells ect...). These things also make RL's alot more complicated then alot of CRPG's. You have to get a water blanket in ADoM for instance before crossing a river or risk ruining your stuff... not to mention having a high swimming skill, oh and dont have on that heavy as heck armor either otherwise your going down.

Another difference is the strategy involved when playing a RL(Should I try to cave in the dungeon so the *insert bad a-- monster here* can't attack my character while I destroy him with my mental powers?). Or in ADoM you really have to decide what your going to do and when... I have got to start out completly different if I start without the healing skill then if I do start with it for instance(Take the carpenter quest). I've never seen anything like that before in a "standard" RPG.

Anyways I just think that RL's are ALOT different(and better   ) than most games period and so should have thier own category.

[A. J. Raffles]

I'd say it's a good idea to introduce roguelikes as a separate category, especially since we already have several of them on the site.

[Tom Henrik]

It's up to Kosta really.

[Triton]

So what if ADoM has features other RPGs don't?  Adding things like wishes and freezing water add to the strategy of the game, and making the player start all over when his character dies makes the game that much more fun because of the thrill associated with risk taking; in other games, if you die you can just return to the last time you saved and try again.  Where's the fun in that?

You also say that most people would not consider rougelikes to be RPGs because they think of other games that are more commonly associated with the RPG genre.  Since when does the opinions of the general concensus matter?  If they did, there would be no wars at all, and Al Gore would have been president in 2000.  Rougelikes are RPGs by definition, whether people like it or not.  I can't believe that people in GameFAQs still think Zelda are RPGs.

And what defines a "standard" RPG?  Rougelikes have everything that an RPG needs to be considered an RPG: fantastic story, events determined by chance, and characters roleplayed by the player.  http://dictionary.re.....playing games

Besides, what's so fun about an RPG that has the same items every time you play, the same dungeons, and the same monsters in the same places?  And what's so fun about dying and being able to continue as much as you want?  When I play a typical cookie-cutter RPG like Final Fantasy, I don't play it again for years because of how redundant it would become; the story doesn't change, the dungeons don't change, and the items don't change.  The only exception here are games like Final Fantasy V and Final Fantasy Tactics, which give the player the opportunity to customize his characters--something rare among the mainstream RPGs these days.

[A. J. Raffles]

Triton, on Jun 27 2005, 05:18 PM, said:

Besides, what's so fun about an RPG that has the same items every time you play, the same dungeons, and the same monsters in the same places?  And what's so fun about dying and being able to continue as much as you want?  When I play a typical cookie-cutter RPG like Final Fantasy, I don't play it again for years because of how redundant it would become; the story doesn't change, the dungeons don't change, and the items don't change.  The only exception here are games like Final Fantasy V and Final Fantasy Tactics, which give the player the opportunity to customize his characters--something rare among the mainstream RPGs these days.

I couldn't agree more, but that's not actually the point, is it? The question was whether it might be a good idea to put Roguelikes in a separate category. I'd say it would make sense because Roguelikes form a distinct enough sub-genre of RPGs and they have their own following.

[DakaSha]

Triton with all respect(and I mean it) I think you completly missed my point... half of your post is about how much better RL's are. I KNOW... I LOVE THEM.

And Roguelikes pretty much never have a good story... ADoM's story is about a chaos gate that needs to be closed... Angband and Zangband and OneThousandOtherBand dont even have a story. In just about all the other RL's you have to get some orb of zot or amulett of yendor because it will save the world or some crap like that.

"Since when does the opinions of the general concensus matter?"

100% correct.. they don't matter one bit.

"I can't believe that people in GameFAQs still think Zelda are RPGs"

Yeah thats a joke...

"And what defines a "standard" RPG?"

I meant RPG's that most people would name if you asked them what a RPG is.


Raffles phrases it perfectly:

"I'd say it would make sense because Roguelikes form a distinct enough sub-genre of RPGs and they have their own following."

You can look at a Roguelike and say:"Hey look a Roguelike!"
or
"Hey look a RPG!"

but you can't call a RPG a Roguelike

Most normal gamers that love RPG's (Final Fantasy comes to mind) would never play a roguelike and I personnaly havn't played a normal RPG for long once I started playing ADoM.

Anyways yes it is kostas descision but so is this suggestions forum... and since I think Roguelikes should have thier own category and others don't we show the good the bad and the ugly and kosta can use our useless talk to form his own descision.

[DakaSha]

ah! wait... I'm posting this as a second post because it has to do with something completly different:

RL's use alot more strategy then common RPG's and most good ones have a Highscore List meaning they should (in my opinion but this is prob to much) have their own forum with a thread per game... one could post his/her highscores and strategies could be exchanged. True most of the games already have thier own forum(not all!) or one could use the general roguelike forums but i just like abandonia and reloaded more



just a thought

[BeefontheBone]

Well, each gets its own thread if we add it to the site - if you want to see more, get working on reviews and screenshots!

[DakaSha]

You know I just found out that ADoM is in the Text Based category and ZangbandTK in the RPG category... thats kinda messed up




ok it isn't that bad

[BeefontheBone]

I put Zangband there because Text-Based was clearly supposed to refer to text-based adventures rather than RPGs with ASCII graphics. That's why I suggested the extra gategory - it wouldn't be a problem if there were just those 2 on the site but it's almost certain we'll be adding more (Lost Labyrinth should be up soon, for instance).

[BlackFurredBeast]

Why not drop the whole "text based" idea and simply call ADOM, *band, DOOMRL et al "Roguelikes" and the Zorks and other text-adventure games "Interactive Fiction"? That should pretty much cover all bases. Except for ZZT (unique) and Anacreon (strategy, now with semi-graphical frontend), so-called text-based games should fall into either of those categories :-)

[BeefontheBone]

I've made a unilateral decision to move ADoM to the RPG category, but I'd still like a separate Roguelike category.