41 replies to this topic

[DeathDude]

Dang straight I am   HHH has been building up his muscle mass through weight training, mentions it somewhere, was featured in some articles, and yeah as for Cena okay he's not really that buff but I don't know, I can name a guy though main eventer who doesn't Chris Benoit, no way.

[taikara]

Helping a minority *get* a job is nowhere near as bad as placing quotas on the percentage of minority workers a company must employ.

There's nothing wrong with helping a woman, or a black, asian, or hispanic man, or an older person actually get his/her foot into the workplace by offering representation and guidance - after all, if employers weren't generally predisposed to hire a young white man over older people, non-white nationalities, and women because of the general stigmas placed on those minorities, then there wouldn't be a need to help those minorities into the workplace.

(and yes, women are considered a minority simply because we do have unequal standing in the work place).

But the quotas are what I find ridiculous (in work places and higher education institutions), as it keeps people who are incapable of performing well in the workplace who could otherwise be replaced with better workers who are capable (young white male or minority).

It's 100% right to make sure everybody has an equal opportunity, but what each individual does with that opportunity once they get it is their own business.

And for the record, I myself have suffered from this prejudice against women in the workplace, so any of you who claims it's overblown will have to argue with me a bit over it - I am extremely capable, I test very well, am not bad looking, have years of experience in networking, tech support, and other "tech" areas - and most tech employers won't give me a second glance.

With all my knowledge and ability, guess what I do for a living? I'm a secretary for a law office, and I make $7.50 an hour. Go ahead an add that up and see what it comes to a year, not including holidays and the multitude of days my boss randomly decides to shut down the office so he can go surfing or biking.

For everything I am capable of, my abilities are considered to be no greater than pouring coffee, making copies, and smiling pretty for the clients. And yes, it does slightly agitate me

[Kon-Tiki]

That's exactly how I look at it, too. In Belgium, people've been trying to have what... 20% of government to be women. Doesn't matter if they're capable or not, all that matters, is that they have to be women. It's just as unequal as refusing them, not to mention it's contra-productive. To me, true equality's not having to say: "I'm a woman/black person/whatever, so I've got a right for this.", but saying: "I'm capable of this and this and that, so I'm up for this", and getting hired for it.

[MdaG]

I'm quoting Tai here since I'm assuming her response was to me.

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Helping a minority *get* a job is nowhere near as bad as placing quotas on the percentage of minority workers a company must employ.

Nope, but that's not what I meant.

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There's nothing wrong with helping a woman, or a black, asian, or hispanic man, or an older person actually get his/her foot into the workplace by offering representation and guidance - after all, if employers weren't generally predisposed to hire a young white man over older people, non-white nationalities, and women because of the general stigmas placed on those minorities, then there wouldn't be a need to help those minorities into the workplace.

I'd like to see the same employees having to answer to their actions. In Sweden it's not uncommon for an employer to be sued and if it's possible to prove (which isn't that hard) that the person applying for the job didn't get it even though qualified, the employer usually have to pay the applicant.

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(and yes, women are considered a minority simply because we do have unequal standing in the work place).

That doesn't apply to everything. Women have the same opportunities as engineers, but only 25% apply for engineering degrees so there's no wonder men are the majority. Companies often explicitly claim that they would like to see more female applicant since studies have shown that groups of mixed men and women does a overall better job than pure male or pure female groups.

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But the quotas are what I find ridiculous (in work places and higher education institutions), as it keeps people who are incapable of performing well in the workplace who could otherwise be replaced with better workers who are capable (young white male or minority).

It's 100% right to make sure everybody has an equal opportunity, but what each individual does with that opportunity once they get it is their own business.

No arguments there. I'm just saying that I strongly believe that girls have the same oppurtunities as me (in engineering) and shouldn't be given a head start simply because they don't have a *male genital* (no matter what the case was in the 50's).

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And for the record, I myself have suffered from this prejudice against women in the workplace, so any of you who claims it's overblown will have to argue with me a bit over it - I am extremely capable, I test very well, am not bad looking, have years of experience in networking, tech support, and other "tech" areas - and most tech employers won't give me a second glance.

Sorry to hear that, maybe Sweden has gotten further in that area then.

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With all my knowledge and ability, guess what I do for a living? I'm a secretary for a law office, and I make $7.50 an hour. Go ahead an add that up and see what it comes to a year, not including holidays and the multitude of days my boss randomly decides to shut down the office so he can go surfing or biking.

Is that legal?   That wouldn't be possible here (doing what your boss does that is, he would still have to pay you, even if he's shut down the office). If your contract says that you get at least 160h / month. Then you get at least that, it's illegal to reduce the amount of working hours promised.

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For everything I am capable of, my abilities are considered to be no greater than pouring coffee, making copies, and smiling pretty for the clients. And yes, it does slightly agitate me

Here it's possible to sue in those circumstances.

However I don't feel that this has anything to do with what agitates me. The only reason there's a male majority in engineering is because, girls doesn't think engineering is "cool" enough for them. How can I say that? Because law school and med school are crammed with girls. Around 75% of all future lawyers and medical doctors are women. I can promise you that the male law students and mhd students DO NOT get a mentor.

I stopped calling myself a feminist a long time ago since even back then the word didn't have the ring of equal rights. But then again, the word feminist doesn't have the same meaning here as it did during the 70's.

[A. J. Raffles]

MdaG, on Oct 29 2005, 09:41 PM, said:

I'm just saying that I strongly believe that girls have the same oppurtunities as me (in engineering) and shouldn't be given a head start simply because they don't have a *male genital* (no matter what the case was in the 50's).

You mean that during the 50s they did? I'd sig that if it didn't sound quite so worrying...

[MdaG]

A. J. Raffles, on Oct 29 2005, 11:55 PM, said:

MdaG, on Oct 29 2005, 09:41 PM, said:

I'm just saying that I strongly believe that girls have the same oppurtunities as me (in engineering) and shouldn't be given a head start simply because they don't have a *male genital* (no matter what the case was in the 50's).

You mean that during the 50s they did? I'd sig that if it didn't sound quite so worrying...

No I'm saying that things have improved here in Sweden since the 50's (girls having the same oppurtunities as men). The brackets was for implying that society overdo the help just because girls used to have a hard time. Todays girls shouldn't get a free ride just because their grandmothers didn't have the same oppurtunities. Hopefully that cleared it up a bit.  

[A. J. Raffles]

Ah, yes. Much less worrying that way.

[Tulac]

Well it also depends if the country is raw capitalism like US or more Socialist like Sweden...

[DeathDude]

Oh yeah or mixed economy like Canada, the best of both systems, okay maybe.

[MdaG]

Tulac, on Oct 30 2005, 12:19 PM, said:

Well it also depends if the country is raw capitalism like US or more Socialist like Sweden...

I'll assume socialism is a good thing in your book then  
Sweden is becoming more and capitalistic though.

[Juni Ori]

MdaG, on Oct 31 2005, 05:53 AM, said:

Sweden is becoming more and capitalistic though.

Quite global phenomenon actually. On the other hand there's more and more activists driving social reforms and anti-globalization groups. Never-ending cycle.

[Tulac]

MdaG, on Oct 31 2005, 07:53 AM, said:

I'll assume socialism is a good thing in your book then 

It's better when a country is more socially sensitive, yes we lived in communism for 50 years, but if you would take a look in the CIA factbook you would see that Croatia has many times less people living under the poverty line than the USA, although USA has atleast 5-6 times bigger GDP per capita, so I'm not saying that capitalism is bad, but uncontrolled raw capitalism is bad(which is more or less in the US, where everything is privatised, even the Federal Bank which controls the whole monetary system of the world basically since USA is such a superpower)...