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#16 Juni Ori

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Posted 26 May 2007 - 03:48 PM

View Posta1s, on May 26 2007, 05:17 PM, said:

View PostPrejudiceSucks, on May 26 2007, 01:47 PM, said:

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Also helos have to be landed, which makes them vulnerable to artillery fire.<..>
Err they don't have to be landed... they can stay in the air between turns, Juni.
they have to be landed to reload.
Exactly.

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the question I have to ask is how does the enemy know where your ammo dumps are? unlike tanks, helis can travel half across the map to rearm, so you can have dumps located deep behind your lines. and ofcourse like PS said you can use trucks.
Air units and line infiltrated troops are excellent for spotting ammo dumps. True that they can be kept behind, but then low ammo tanks grow less useful. Ammo trucks on the other hand have slower reload rate and are very vulnerable to enemy shelling and direct fire. My point being, that helos + ammo dumps is not flawless tactic. It works, but enemy can possibly counter it. Especially if there's open maps without much cover, desert etc, ammo dumps/trucks grow less useful and they can be spotted easily. Scout helo in high altitude is small target, thus difficult to hit with anything else but SAMs, but even if destroyed, they have succeeded: they have spotted large targets, such as trucks, not to mention ammo dumps. Then: FO + heavy artillery strike (in wide area if truck). Unless the enemy truck moves, it's: Good. Bye.
...70 years... LOL

#17 PrejudiceSucks

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Posted 26 May 2007 - 05:56 PM

View Posta1s, on May 26 2007, 03:17 PM, said:

they have to be landed to reload.
Ah, right. Yes, in those circumstances.

On the other hand, that's why you have APC ammunition resupply if possible, to try and move your ammunition around fairly safely.

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the question I have to ask is how does the enemy know where your ammo dumps are?
Ok, well there are usually 2 things here -

If it's based around dumps, then people usually (and rather stupidly) put them in any kind of defendable, obvious terrain.

For example, in cities, people often put crates in the centre of victory flags, surrounded by houses - which means that if you can get a pre-planned artillery barrage on such sites, even with light artillery like 60mm mortars or 75mm guns, you'll probably blow them up.

Best of all is when people put their heavy artillery right next to ammunition dumps - when your counterbattery fire comes in, you'll probably take out a whole load of points.

The other way is to use UAVs or other spotter aircraft (although Strike aircraft are actually quite good at spotting, too) to make spotting runs on suspected areas.

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unlike tanks, helis can travel half across the map to rearm, so you can have dumps located deep behind your lines.
True, but people will send scouts over to where your helis keep flying off to.

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and ofcourse like PS said you can use trucks.
Yeah, trucks and other such mobile transports are very useful - especially armoured carriers if your forces can use them.

Paladins with M992 FAASVs are particularly effective - they can shoot and scoot, as well as having good enough armour to stop any kind of small-arms losses, which are a huge problem with trucks (although as I said earlier, this does have certain advantages).

#18 Juni Ori

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Posted 27 May 2007 - 12:31 AM

PJ, you apparently ain't no rookie. Overall: no more free hints. BUT: Ammo trucks compared to Ammo APCs have too little difference, everything classified as heavy artillery does serious damage to any vehicle-portable ammo-resupply. Trucks: too easy; APCs: easy. Any way, both are incapable to rearm larger strikerforce, be that MBTs or helos.

About how you - or opponent in PBEM - positions the resupply, it's your - or his - own stupidity, if you put them in too obvious locations. Center of the flags is almost best possible location against me, becaust I don't believe no one is stupid enough to locate them there. (I've had few PBEM games, not to mention against AI.)

But, generous as I am, I'll give one more free hint: never use other than off-map artillery to suffer of the counterartillery. On-map + ammo dump is almost stupidest thing I've ever seen.

CAS against UAV is questioable: both work, but neither is superior.

About Shoot'n'scoot, I agree, efficient tactic, BUT, not superior, it also can be countered. (not telling you how... :P)
...70 years... LOL

#19 a1s

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Posted 27 May 2007 - 02:43 PM

View PostJuni Ori, on May 27 2007, 12:31 AM, said:

About Shoot'n'scoot, I agree, efficient tactic, BUT, not superior, it also can be countered. (not telling you how... ;))
well with air strikes, no? generally MRL is good for this, but for most countries it would take too long to fire...

P.S. PS, I was trying to recreate you suicide bombing ammo truck technique, it doesn't seem to work for me...  :P
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#20 PrejudiceSucks

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Posted 27 May 2007 - 02:53 PM

View PostJuni Ori, on May 27 2007, 01:31 AM, said:

Ammo trucks compared to Ammo APCs have too little difference, everything classified as heavy artillery does serious damage to any vehicle-portable ammo-resupply. Trucks: too easy; APCs: easy.
The real danger for trucks is around simple small-arms fire - a unit or two of scouts, or, even worse, some kind of special forces or marines (with experience bonuses and a lot of anti-infantry weapons) can take out your ammo trucks in a single turn, and what with the secondary explosions and all, that's quite a bit risk.

With an APC, you do have some of the same problems, light AT, for example LAW-80s or RPG-7s, are often carried by infantry, but on the other hand, your APCs usually have a 7.62 or .50 mounted on them, which makes them a bit harder to take out in this fashion.

Yes, heavy artillery will always devastate these units, but then it'll do that to almost anything other than the heaviest MBTs.

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Any way, both are incapable to rearm larger strikerforce, be that MBTs or helos.
Hmm... not really sure about this, to be honest.

It depends on how much you're willing to spend on resupply - yes, they hold less ammunition, but on the other hand, you don't have to spend a couple of turns on the larger maps running back and forth to your ammo dumps.

So I guess it depends how you like to play.

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But, generous as I am, I'll give one more free hint: never use other than off-map artillery to suffer of the counterartillery. On-map + ammo dump is almost stupidest thing I've ever seen.
Hehehe... yeah. Either send some helicopters after enemy artillery sites, or use off-map artillery. For the love of God, don't just use mortars or mobile 155s, or you'll have counter-counter-battery artillery, and it all starts to go wrong.

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CAS against UAV is questioable: both work, but neither is superior.
CAS pretty much goes in a straight line, whereas UAVs do a spotting run in a circle, as well as usually being better at spotting on the way - the obvious advantage, however, is that CAS gets to shoot its cannons and drop some bombs to slow the enemy attack down and all a UAV is really good for is guiding artillery and making sure you know where the enemy is located.

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About Shoot'n'scoot, I agree, efficient tactic, BUT, not superior, it also can be countered. (not telling you how... ;))
Let me guess - off-map rocket artillery?

View Posta1s, on May 27 2007, 03:43 PM, said:

well with air strikes, no? generally MRL is good for this, but for most countries it would take too long to fire...
MRLS' are very useful preplanned, because you can get them when you want to on the field - another trick which is very, very expensive but quite nice is to take some Minelet artillery and basically cover roads and other areas of attack, as well as likely artillery areas, because most people (including myself) don't bother taking engineer infantry except for assualt missions - for meeting engagements, it's very nice indeed :party:

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P.S. PS
Heh!

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I was trying to recreate you suicide bombing ammo truck technique, it doesn't seem to work for me...  :P
you have to be veeeeery cunning to do it - try putting them on the other side of hills etc. where you know where the enemy has his forces ( either by land-based recon or spotter aircraft) but he can't see your trucks - then shoot at them a bit, until they have only a couple of MG rounds left to react with (on tanks, this is usually after 3 cannon shots) and then shift-click the hex with the enemy in. They usually save their last couple of rounds for close-range firepower, so when your truck gets blown up (and it will, either by them shooting it, or by you saving a couple of rounds for it yourself)it should take the enemy out.

It almost always takes out APCs and anti-aircraft vehicles, and depending on which MBT you're charging, it can be quite easy or quite rare.

#21 Juni Ori

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Posted 30 May 2007 - 02:29 PM

Okay, WinSPWW2, playing Long Campaign as Germans, first mission, meeting engagement, in Norway and VP's locate on top of huge (over 100 height) mountain and map size is 100x100. I try to be cunning and locate my two times six sIG 1b's so that enemy random artillery fire can't be efficient, but still so that I have hopes of reaching road and thus safety after one or two rounds of bombardment. Of course I have two Munitions LKW with them. Two separate groups ready to fire, whenever enemy on-map artillery opens fire. My Panzers and Brandenburgers are held a little back, so possible enemy artillery fire to my front deploy area can't hurt them.

Okay, turn zero artillery (I didn't order any) barrage lands exactly in front of my Panzers. My Fieseler Storch reveals me some Dragoons advancing in middle. Okay, cool, everything okay so far. I order my sIG 1b's to fire enemy artillery and leave my off-map 15cm batteries waiting in hopes of catching enemy off-map artillery by counterfire. I also take a small risk and order my Panzers to advance to the area enemy has just bombarded.

Everything's fine after enemy turn. No contacts yet - how could there be, there's tons of stone between our forces? My two Fallschirmjägerzugs land suffering very mild casualties due to landing in to forests. This turn they succeed capturing two victory point locations. Everything is cool and I'm waiting keenly my counterfire.

Hell breaks loose: eight enemy Fokker CVE's stunningly bombard my sIG 1b's - destroying my Munitions LKW, which explodes destroying six of my sIG 1b's! Right after this, four of another type fighterbomber comes and hits directly in the middle of my other sIG 1b-battery!!! Of course my four SPAA's were unable to drop but one enemy plane and damage another!

Guess am I going to continue without loading preplanned? Stupid xiiter-AI...
...70 years... LOL

#22 Iendicis

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Posted 01 June 2007 - 10:31 PM

"Breathes in quickly"

Holy god, look at that 420 MB file size. Why is a hex based game like this have such a big download (some MMO's are smaller, for Christs's sake!)? Is it worth it?

Maybe I should wait for the review. :P

And yet all of your strategic discussions totally makes me want to grab it.
I have been informed that today is, in fact, opposite day, and what you've written there is absolutely true so you should probably just go.
Rabbleous rabblerousers. Christ on a bike. Quite naturally people took you for a lunatic. Your only salvation now is complete rest.

#23 Juni Ori

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Posted 02 June 2007 - 12:11 AM

Definitely worth downloading. I've had SPWaW on my hd for some years now I believe and both win-versions for months. I don't necessarily play them all the time, but I've never even gave a thought of deleting them! :P
...70 years... LOL

#24 a1s

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Posted 03 June 2007 - 05:18 PM

View PostJuni Ori, on Jun 2 2007, 12:11 AM, said:

but I've never even gave a thought of deleting them! :party:
I did once. :P
downloaded it again 2 weeks later- steel panthers are great! ;)
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#25 PrejudiceSucks

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Posted 04 June 2007 - 12:52 PM

View PostIendicis, on Jun 1 2007, 11:31 PM, said:

"Breathes in quickly"

Holy god, look at that 420 MB file size. Why is a hex based game like this have such a big download (some MMO's are smaller, for Christs's sake!)? Is it worth it?

Maybe I should wait for the review. :P

And yet all of your strategic discussions totally makes me want to grab it.
SPMBT is, in my opinion, somewhat better than SPWW2, although they're both excellent releases.

Well worth the download, SPWW2 gives you 16 years of detailed TO&Es to fight various nations with (Belgium vs. the USSR in 1946 ahoy!) and it's not a slow game to play, either.

SPMBT has a quite frankly incredible time period of 1946-2020 and although in these later times, it's not quite so accurate (for example, the US XM8 programme was halted, but their troops from 2008 onwards are armed with them) it's still a fantastic game, and if ever you've wondered how Sweden would do against North Yemen, well, here's your chance.

Seeing as it's based off an engine coped to deal mainly with 80s warfare between East and West, it has a great many extra features that SPWW2 doesn't really have, such as electronic warfare etc.

Worth getting for sure.

#26 Juni Ori

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Posted 04 June 2007 - 01:11 PM

MBT is great and has extra features, but imo SPWW2 has three winning qualities: far more greater accuracy, Long Campaigns and a lot more designed campaigns.

However... I'm slowly getting really annoyed to the AI. Random and impossibly accurate air strikes do not make the game playable every time! Soon I'll remove all air strikes...
...70 years... LOL

#27 PrejudiceSucks

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Posted 04 June 2007 - 04:49 PM

View PostJuni Ori, on Jun 4 2007, 02:11 PM, said:

MBT is great and has extra features, but imo SPWW2 has three winning qualities: far more greater accuracy, Long Campaigns and a lot more designed campaigns.

However... I'm slowly getting really annoyed to the AI. Random and impossibly accurate air strikes do not make the game playable every time! Soon I'll remove all air strikes...
The issue with air strikes is easily remedied - buy more AA guns / AAMGs. Yes, it's cheap, but it's what you have to do.

That's one of my largest points of irritation of MBT, though. "Ah yes, an airborne assault as the US against Somalia can't fail, can it?"

Planes fly in... oh... I see... they bought 12 AA missile guys, as well as a million and one Technicals with AA guns... hmm...

#28 Juni Ori

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Posted 05 June 2007 - 05:31 AM

There's only one big problem: the more you buy AAA, the more AI seems to get (ridiculously accurate and omniscient) air strikes OR it won't invest at all and then you have pretty useless bunch of AAA - especially in MBT where hi-tech SAMs are absolutely useless against ground forces (which isn't btw too accurate). And the more you rely on air units (including paradrops), the more AI invests to AAA. You never ever get that real surprise element against AI. That's why I'm starting to prefer multiplayer games.

Hehe, I've made the same mistake, underestimating the glorious Somali forces and their capability to take out imperialistic flying machines. In my case I used helos, however...

But there's always a way to counter Somali forces: scout helo + artillery. Never fails. You don't even need heavy artillery as technicals can't sustain damage at all. Using Hellfire against technical is sacrilege. (However pervertly satisfying! :P)
...70 years... LOL

#29 PrejudiceSucks

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Posted 05 June 2007 - 01:06 PM

View PostJuni Ori, on Jun 5 2007, 06:31 AM, said:

There's only one big problem: the more you buy AAA, the more AI seems to get (ridiculously accurate and omniscient) air strikes OR it won't invest at all and then you have pretty useless bunch of AAA - especially in MBT where hi-tech SAMs are absolutely useless against ground forces (which isn't btw too accurate). And the more you rely on air units (including paradrops), the more AI invests to AAA. You never ever get that real surprise element against AI. That's why I'm starting to prefer multiplayer games.
Ah, SAMs. Yeah, I avoid those like the plague and instead get SPAA (Shilkas are my faves, but the North Koreans get some surprisingly decent kit, too).

No tricky ECMs to make my missiles ineffective. Oh no.

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Hehe, I've made the same mistake, underestimating the glorious Somali forces and their capability to take out imperialistic flying machines. In my case I used helos, however...
Believe me, they're just as tragically effective against planes *sighs*.

Three gunship aircraft... gone within 5 hexes of the board edge... 6 C130s... shot down, utterly scattering my Rangers... F16s... no match for the Somali SAM defense...

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But there's always a way to counter Somali forces: scout helo + artillery. Never fails. You don't even need heavy artillery as technicals can't sustain damage at all. Using Hellfire against technical is sacrilege. (However pervertly satisfying! :P)
The issue is mainly with their MANPADS, the technicals are much easier to hit and destroy, not being able to hide properly in rubble etc. and all.

#30 Juni Ori

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Posted 06 June 2007 - 04:53 AM

I made a test campaign and after third battle I'm confident that there's actually no sure way to get rid of Somali anti-aircraft. They have too much and too effective man-portable SAMs, leaving you no other choise but to approach the on ground and suppressing their (ridiculous) overwhelming infantry with artillery. Behind your ground forces you may use gunships to support, but truth is, that at the same cost, you'll benefit more using those points in ground forces... Only, and really only, if there are canyons your helos can use to approach, they are considerable.

I'm thinking of creating a scenario, where your small task force is surrounded by huge masses of Somali militia and your mission is to hold the victory points as long as possible. Every unit will of course have additional cost to represent the low manpower loss capability of US forces and thus helos (which you can (or actually must) use to evacuate your forces) and airstrikes will play significant role. (Heehee, B-52 with bomblets? :P) Sadly there's no way (that I can think of atm) to represent civilians (and casualties), so I guess the village is evacuated... or something.

Btw, if you play scenario, you can always buy enemy forces, but I prefer campaigns, where it isn't possible. (In one campaign my sniper (M82) had 63 "kills"! ;))
...70 years... LOL



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