134 replies to this topic

[Juni Ori]

Puffin, on Feb 6 2006, 10:28 AM, said:

No matter how illegal it is to draw this guy. It's just silly.



Now if I have said some wrong facts, please correct me.

There's nothing illegal in drawing Muhammed, except by the Coran. And as far as I know, none of the prophets' face (good correction) is allowed to be represented. That paper is published in Denmark, which doesn't happen to be Islamic country, so there shouldn't be any problem at first place in that sense. Now there's demonstration outside Danish embassy in Helsinki, our capital... Yeah, as if cops didn't have some more important thing to do but watch over some fanatics...

[Tulac]

The Niles posted this on AB...



I think it pretty much sums it up...

[Juni Ori]

As you said it: pretty much sums it up...

[Flop]

Puffin, on Feb 6 2006, 12:28 PM, said:

@Beef: They can't draw any of the prophets. I saw an interview to the guy who's the top muslim guy in Iceland, that's what he said. No Muhammed, no Jesus, no prophets at all.
Which kinda makes me wonder why the muslims haven't freaked out before... Just walk through an art museum and you'll see plenty of paintings of jesus.

Yeah, the muslims consider Jesus to be a prophet as well (just not as highly ranked), so they can't depict him. But there has been pictures of Muhammed before, too, which as far as I know didn't cause anyone to freak out like this.

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What I think is really sad, is that Denmark has been very open for immigrants. I can't name any single country who accepts as many immigrant and fugitives as Denmark does. Like Flop said, there were those Danish muslims who were actually encouraging other muslims to freak out to this!! Ok, they might be born Danes but not immigrants.. But there are (correct me if I'm wrong, Flop) loads of muslims who couldnt' live in their countries, or wanted a better life, that moved to Denmark.  Now dont' get me wrong, nothing wrong with immigrants in general. I'll be an immigrant there myself soon. But when they thank for themselves like this... it's the rudest thing I've ever heard of.

In all fairness I think that muslims in Denmark have plenty of other reasons to be upset. The third largest party in Denmark (which supports and is supported by out current government) is notoriously anti-immigrant, bordering to racist, and most of the top politicians in that party have been convicted for making racist statements. If I was a muslim I'd feel stepped on too. But this whole issue with the drawings draw attention away from that, and in fact seems to be hurting the Danish muslims cause quite a bit. There are plenty of other (legitimate) things for Danish muslims to complain about, so why they bother with this I just don't get.

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Also correct me if I'm wrong on this one, but Dannebrog (the Danish flag) is a pretty important thing for most Danes. Or at least that's what they teach in Danish here. Burning Dannebrog (which nota bene has one of the main symbols of Christianity on it) is a really serious thing. I personally would say, but that's just my opinion, more serious than portraiting Muhammed.

I don't know really. To me, it's not that important if someone somewhere in the world wants to burn Dannebrog, but I can see if some people would feel hurt by it. As I think I mentioned, it's illegal to burn a foreign nations flag in Denmark (it's legal to burn Dannebrog, though), so you'll probably never see anyone in Denmark burning a Palestinian flag.

[A. J. Raffles]

Juni Ori, on Feb 6 2006, 11:11 AM, said:

Puffin, on Feb 6 2006, 10:28 AM, said:

No matter how illegal it is to draw this guy. It's just silly.



Now if I have said some wrong facts, please correct me.

There's nothing illegal in drawing Muhammed, except by the Coran. And as far as I know, none of the prophets' face (good correction) is allowed to be represented.

We also shouldn't forget that Islam comes in lots of different flavours, just like any other religion, so it isn't really surprising that there are contradictions. For example, one of the reasons why all those elaborate patterns on rugs etc evolved is that in some version of Islam, people were completely forbidden to portray humans. (Well, it's breathing creatures, really, so animals were taboo as well, and some slightly more extreme position was that you weren't even allowed to depict plants.)

@Puffin: Maybe you were thinking of that bit about the golden calf, but that's about not making idols rather than not having pictures at all. Although I think some people might have read it that way, but I'd have to look that up.

[Juni Ori]

Flop, on Feb 6 2006, 11:58 AM, said:

I don't know really. To me, it's not that important if someone somewhere in the world wants to burn Dannebrog, but I can see if some people would feel hurt by it. As I think I mentioned, it's illegal to burn a foreign nations flag in Denmark (it's legal to burn Dannebrog, though), so you'll probably never see anyone in Denmark burning a Palestinian flag.

I'd be upset if somebody burned Finnish flag in a demonstration or riot. But to correct a little bit, every country's flag is supposed to be burned after it has been - intentionally or not - disgraced, it has worn old or otherwise not usable anymore. The way is just much more respectful and definetly not in middle of some mob! That's disgracing! (And there's  kind of dilemma, in a sense )

It's somewhat difficult to say who's fault it is, if the immigrants aren't adapted to native population. It depends so much in many different things. In any ways - as I see it - it still should be immigrants who should get used to local manners.

[Puffin]

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In all fairness I think that muslims in Denmark have plenty of other reasons to be upset. The third largest party in Denmark (which supports and is supported by out current government) is notoriously anti-immigrant, bordering to racist, and most of the top politicians in that party have been convicted for making racist statements. If I was a muslim I'd feel stepped on too. But this whole issue with the drawings draw attention away from that, and in fact seems to be hurting the Danish muslims cause quite a bit. There are plenty of other (legitimate) things for Danish muslims to complain about, so why they bother with this I just don't get.

I didn't know this.. I knew there were danes that dont' like the immigrants (stealing jobs etc - NOT my opinion, though), but I had no idea that the political parties disliked them. But the way I look at it... And that's again just my opinion... I would think that would be better than living in a country where you're shot at, raped and tortured. And i'm NOT saying that's the way it is in all islamic countries, but it is the fact in some of them. And many people from there are let into Denmark and other countries.


I really hope you all don't think I'm a racist... I'm not. I don't hate all muslims, I just hate what many of them are doing right now.

@Flop; about Dannebrog.. I've never lived in Denmark, or even been there, so I just know what my danish teachers have told me It might be kinda biased of their opinions.

@Juni: I might be wrong, but I think that what is written in the Coran, is pretty much all in their laws. At least it used to be like that, I might be awfully wrong now.

I'd freak out if I'd see anyone burn the Icelandic flag. I'm not a big patriot, but I respect the flag. In icelandic laws, you should burn the flag if it falls on the ground or rips up or something, that is the only exception. I think that burning a national flag is a VERY bad thing. In my opinion, it's attacking the whole nation, their identity.

@AJ: I don't know if it's the Gold Calf... At least I wouldn't interpret it that way.. Like I said, it might be wrong what I said earlier, it's just something I heard.

[Juni Ori]

Puffin, on Feb 6 2006, 12:40 PM, said:

@Juni: I might be wrong, but I think that what is written in the Coran, is pretty much all in their laws. At least it used to be like that, I might be awfully wrong now.

I know that very well. My point was: It happened in Denmark, which isn't Islamic country and does not follow those laws.

[Flop]

Puffin, on Feb 6 2006, 02:40 PM, said:

I really hope you all don't think I'm a racist... I'm not. I don't hate all muslims, I just hate what many of them are doing right now.

I'm sure no one thinks you're a racist. I don't, anyway.

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@Flop; about Dannebrog.. I've never lived in Denmark, or even been there, so I just know what my danish teachers have told me It might be kinda biased of their opinions.

Well, I don't really know. As I said, I'm sure that some people find it very offensive when someone burns it. To me it's just annoying.

[DakaSha]

A. J. Raffles, on Feb 6 2006, 08:44 AM, said:

Daka said:

Now:
if some danish guy wants to draw something... and the danish newspapers want to print it... who are these people to burn down buildings because of it? why cant they just say: "Well their going to hell... to bad for them" and let it be?

Well... that's a slightly naive way of looking at it. I think it's extremely unlikely that this Danish guy "wanted to draw something" and it just happened to turn into a cartoon of Muhammad. He wanted to make a point, and so did the paper when it printed those cartoons.

Of course he wanted to make a point... so?
And i dont think its that niave when you consider that most arab nations have alot worse things to say about christianity or every other religion for that matter and we dont even show it on television because we could give a damn.

mabye its niave to think that the arabs could just look the other way... but isnt that just proving my point?

[A. J. Raffles]

DakaSha, on Feb 6 2006, 01:04 PM, said:

A. J. Raffles, on Feb 6 2006, 08:44 AM, said:

Daka said:

Now:
if some danish guy wants to draw something... and the danish newspapers want to print it... who are these people to burn down buildings because of it? why cant they just say: "Well their going to hell... to bad for them" and let it be?

Well... that's a slightly naive way of looking at it. I think it's extremely unlikely that this Danish guy "wanted to draw something" and it just happened to turn into a cartoon of Muhammad. He wanted to make a point, and so did the paper when it printed those cartoons.

Of course he wanted to make a point... so?
And i dont think its that niave when you consider that most arab nations have alot worse things to say about christianity or every other religion for that matter and we dont even show it on television because we could give a damn.

mabye its niave to think that the arabs could just look the other way... but isnt that just proving my point?

No, you misunderstood me there. What I meant was that it's naive to assume that this just happened because some Danish person decided to make a few drawings out of a sudden whim. It was pretty much an orchestrated thing.

And I think we need to be careful not to over-generalise what "the Arabs" are like and what sort of stereotypes they have. Maybe one of our stereotypes is that their stereotypes are a lot worse? Not to mention that not all Arabs are muslims and not all muslims are Arabs.

[DakaSha]

oh

i dont know much about the whole thing but i cant really picture it not being orchestrated so i agree with you there.

and yeah i know that we have certain things that can be considred worse... really i could even point out a couple things.

it just happens that the arabs or muslims happen to have an extremly itchy trigger finger when it comes to their religion. one cant really condem them for it because its just the way they are brought up... but like i said i really dont care how they were brought up to believe and how to act. once their beliefs are directed towards us western nations (in an aggresive manner... they can say what they want for all i care) they are going too far period.

i can understand them being upset because of the drawings but they are overreacting.. mabye its orchestrated but they seem to not even think about that... its like they are waiting for a reason be all aggressive because of something we did.

[Puffin]

DakaSha, on Feb 6 2006, 02:02 PM, said:

it just happens that the arabs or muslims happen to have an extremly itchy trigger finger when it comes to their religion. one cant really condem them for it because its just the way they are brought up... but like i said i really dont care how they were brought up to believe and how to act. once their beliefs are directed towards us western nations (in an aggresive manner... they can say what they want for all i care) they are going too far period.

Exactly what I think.



One thing I was wondering about... I wonder how this affects / will affects the USA.. Will it change the world's attitute towards them? Are they "off the hook" now because (i daresay) the mess they made / are making in Iraq? Are Danes/Europe now the bad guys? Will the countries that the muslims are pointing at (mainly Denmark, though) now support America further?
Just a small thought that popped to my head..

[DeathDude]

That's actually a good question, my thoughts on it though I don't think it will change the Arab's perspection of them in the middle east, especially with Iraq, which will be on their minds for a long time, it does change things and possibily divert attention from them for a bit of time, focusing now on the countries like Denmark and the others that have posted the cartoon.

I think things are going to pick up as recent events like Hamas power in Palestine and now with Iran becoming even more defiant, situations in the middle east are going to escalate and I wouldn't be surprised if the States try to give it a go in Iran or even if Israel tries to go forward that way too.

[Puffin]

A girl I know was going to Dubai over the easter, with her mom.. They had been offered to stay at one of the fanciest hotels in the world. For free, everything included. But the ministry of foreign affairs here in Iceland adviced them not to go because of all this, so they're not going