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Freeware on Abandonia?


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#31 Sebatianos

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Posted 13 April 2006 - 09:51 PM

Tom Henrik, on Apr 13 2006, 09:45 PM, said:

The only problem right now is that we don't have a common search engine for the sites, that you can use to get to any games on the two sites. (Unless you count the DOS list - which does).

However, this will all change in the future, when we get new site designs. :angel:
Well, that's certainly good news, which does put me to ease a bit. So when the new design kicks in and a person is looking for a title whish is comertial-turned-freeware game (and only on AR) it will still show up on the Abandonia as well. That's even beter then hosting the game twice.

#32 Tom Henrik

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Posted 13 April 2006 - 09:55 PM

Isn't it? :angel:

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#33 A. J. Raffles

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Posted 13 April 2006 - 09:59 PM

Sebatianos, on Apr 13 2006, 09:02 PM, said:

I can understand that AR wishes to have some well renouned classic titles as well, especially when they fall into the freeware category for which AR was created, but there's no reason some games shouldn't be on BOTH SITES. After all these are sister sites, not competitors, so why not share some things which are equali importaint to both???
Since this was bumped already, how's this for a reason: if AB is theoretically entitled to lay claim to any freeware game eligible to go on AR (on the grounds that it's a classic which is of general interest, etc), but conversely, AR's being a freeware site means it naturally won't be able to lay claim to any titles which might go on AB, you're NOT treating the sites as equals, and the whole "sister" concept becomes ludicrous:
Suppose you're a strict vegetarian who only lives on salad and the odd bit of tofu, while your brother is an omnivore (although he prefers meat on the whole, he does like to have some fresh salad from time to time). In the mind of your brother, sharing lunch would mean that he gets part of your salad, while he sincerely regrets not being able to give you some of his steak in return because you don't eat meat - what a shame. For you, of course, things look a bit different: the only person who has to gain from the sharing lunch thing is your brother - you'll still be eating salad, just as you would be if your brother hadn't asked you to share, and you can't help feeling that there's something slightly unequal about the whole thing. That doesn't make your brother a bad person, of course (after all, he isn't to blame for the situation; it was you who chose to become a vegetarian at one point, and now it just wouldn't be right for you to eat meat), but its still an unequal situation, no matter how much your brother may praise your great relationship.
OK, maybe that wasn't a particularly good example, but what I'm trying to say is that true "sharing" in our case wouldn't mean that AB gets abandonware updates and shares AR's freeware games, it would mean that AB gets all things abandonware, while freeware (regardless of whether they're classics or not) goes on AR. What you're suggesting would indirectly favour AB by giving it the meat as well as the choice of the salad.

Anyway, salad-examples aside, I'm fairly tired of this discussion. Frankly, I can't see what AB could possibly hope to gain through trying to belittle the importance of its sister site by duplicating updates and effectively telling visitors "all the really important stuff is here - you don't actually need to go over there, unless you absolutely want to". I'm not saying that that is the actual motive behind AB's actions concerning freeware updates, but that's how it will be understood and frequently has been understood. I've seen a lot of confused posts along the lines of "freeware games are added to both sites, right?" or "I don't really check Reloaded; all the important stuff goes on Abandonia anyway". It's as simple as that: as long as Abandonia continues to add freeware games, people won't see what's the point in having Reloaded at all.

Edit: Ignore this post. I just type too bloody slowly.:angel:

Edited by A. J. Raffles, 13 April 2006 - 10:01 PM.


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#34 Sebatianos

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Posted 13 April 2006 - 10:19 PM

Well I liked your salad comparisons... It's not about taking games away from AR, it's not about the importaince of the games... The sites have different aproaches.

On Abandonia some reviews are made for weeks, others are made in minutes. In general the reviewing on Abandonia takes much less time. That's why I find it difficult to ignore the fact that a great freeware title, that could be added to abandonia in a mater of hours, should wait for months before it shows up on AR (if it shows up at all, because it's status may change in that time).

I guess that's the main point of my ranting, plus the feeling of Abandonia being excluded from the talks. Sorry to say, but like Tom mentioned before it was decided between Tom, Tai and Kosta.
Kosta is the owner of both sides, so he's probably not bias.
Tom and Tai (although both started on Abandonia - before AR even existed) represent the core of AR.
So it seems to me the decision was made by AR alone and Kosta just agreed to it.

EDIT: Guess I was just trying to let out some steam, when I saw this topic.

Edited by Sebatianos, 13 April 2006 - 10:21 PM.


#35 Tom Henrik

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Posted 13 April 2006 - 10:21 PM

Actually...

Kosta is hardcore AB. Tai is harcore AR. I am the guy who works for both sites every day.

Thus the three of us form the "main" core of the sites - as we can meet on a somewhat neutral ground when we discuss matters :angel:

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#36 taikara

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Posted 13 April 2006 - 10:27 PM

Well, at one point, the decision was whether AR should even be allowed to host commercial-turned-freeware... which I obviously strongly argued against, for the reasons that Raffles stated.

I've personally never been against AB hosting old commercial-turned-freeware games, but I really felt that AB updaters should pay more attention to a game's status so they didn't update with independent released-as-freeware games.

I'm sorry if you don't like it, Seb, but the decision was Kosta's. I know I personally never asked that old commercial-turned-freeware not be hosted on AB *at all*. It might just be that we at AR debate with more endurance and clarity than our sister site, but Kosta is very good at making the decisions HE wants to make.
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#37 Kon-Tiki

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Posted 13 April 2006 - 10:30 PM

I said I wouldn't be here, but this thread does involve my work on a decent site, so I'll still say it anyways.

'bout a year and a couple months back, Kosta asked me what to do with games that were basically twice on the site. As example, he mentioned Wings of Fury and its remake, and this one game where you fight with animals (forgot its name), and its remake.

He initially thought it might be an idea to make an extra category for these on AB, the category Freeware, but I asked him where people'd have to look then, and how people'd know 'bout a remake of a game. I also asked him where games that're fully freeware, like Enclosure, would go to: that Freeware category, or the Adventure category. (Or, with his question: the games I make, like Tales of the Tiki and Ninja Forever)

Basically, that Freeware category needed to have categories of its own, so people'd be able to find the games they're looking for with ease, instead of plowing through an unsorted clutter. That's when Kosta asked me if it'd be a good idea to make a separate site for the remakes and the games that're released as freeware.

The main idea for AR that got this whole site into being, was to make a place where all the remakes of games on AB and games members of the community made/overall games that were made with the intention of becoming freeware, and were released as such.

This idea flared up again when AR got the old DOS-game from the '80s, Llamatron. Kosta asked why it was on AR, and that it was a game for AB, which further shows that it's Kosta's intention to have old DOS-games on AB (just as AB's title says, and as the update policy's been for a long time: No Windows-games, purely Dos-games) and remakes and games that've always been freeware on AR.

Guess what, in the end, AR is Kosta's site, so what he says, goes on here, and until closer order from him, I myself won't hand over old DOS-games that are turned freeware, cause they're still what AB exists for, and not what AR exists for.

What works especially aggravating, is people butting into AB and telling the updaters to give games for AB over. There're tons of great games out there that're fully freeware and can be added to AR without the need of stealing them from AB. If you guys run out of games, there's still an AGI community that feels highly neglected here, and that can provide a whole source of top-quality freeware games. So why steal the ones that should go on AB instead of putting ones up that fully go on AR and not on AB?

#38 A. J. Raffles

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Posted 13 April 2006 - 10:33 PM

Of course you won't be handing over any games. They're not yours to hand over, are they?:angel:

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#39 Tom Henrik

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Posted 13 April 2006 - 10:39 PM

Uhm....

Once again, you only hear what you want to hear, Raf.

What Kosta did was to ask why the game was on AR, because he thought it was abandonware. And, yes, in the beginning he thought it would be a good idea to dual host the games that fell sorta in between the two sites.

However, once he had managed to think matters through a bit more he came to the following conclusion (that he posted in the AB Updater Forum on Feb. 2nd, 2006):

Kosta said:

Right, here we go again... LOL

I won't go on for long, but I'll keep it simple. Freeware games will go on AR regardless of age, platform, initial status etc. Games that will become freeware and are on Abandonia will stay on Abandonia, but the link will be forwarded to AR. So basically if the oldwarez list suggests game is freeware, then its AR material :angel:

As for this statement of yours:

Kon Tiki said:

I myself won't hand over old DOS-games that are turned freeware, cause they're still what AB exists for, and not what AR exists for.

I have no idea where you got that from. AR exist purely for freeware games. Something Kosta made perfectly clear in his little post above.


This discussion is over. It was over several months ago. Anyone who doesn't like what has been decided, has the right to feel so. However, nothing will change. I suggest that people deal with the outcome as best as they can.

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#40 Sebatianos

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Posted 13 April 2006 - 10:45 PM

EDIT - replaying to A.J.: Well, I guess that's just Tiki's expresing.
It's about noticing people about freeware games, a request made in the updaters forum on Abandonia. But one of the main references to updaters is the Oldwarez list by Tom, so I don't see how we could tell Tom a game is freeware - if it's not on his freeware list, and I fail to see why should anyone tell Tom a game is freeware, if he already clasifyed it as such on his list... but this is getting beyond the initial point.

If I undersand this correctly - AR didn't want to have comertial games that turned freeware.
Abandonia wants these games.
Abandonia doesn't want independently made freeware games (the ones that were added are there from the days before AR was made), AR is dedicated to these games.

So why not simply change the rules???

All comertially made games (regarthless if they're freeware/abandonaware/protected) are to be considered for Abandonia (even if protected games only as reviews - not to be downloaded).
All independantly made freeware titles are to be considered for Abandonia Reloaded.

That would make sense wouldn't it?

EDIT 2:

Quote

However, nothing will change.

Why not? (I wont' go through the argumentation again - it's just a few line up in this very post).

Edited by Sebatianos, 13 April 2006 - 10:49 PM.


#41 Kon-Tiki

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Posted 13 April 2006 - 10:56 PM

@Twit: You say I hear whatever I want to hear. You just say whatever'll fit you fine, so I'll ignore that. I know what Kosta and I discussed that day, and that's how I'll keep handling AB's updates. Only person I listen to when it comes to AR, is Kosta, as he's got the good of the site in eye.

@AJ: It's up to me as much as it's up to the other updaters. I prep games and jump in with updating, so it is up to me as well.

Just so you know, it's useless to demand handing these games over. There're plenty of freeware games that you guys can use instead of stealing our games. We do our updates as we've been told: Adding DOS-games. If they became freeware in the run of the years, then so be it. I know I'll still add it. Just saying to stop butting in and telling us how to do our work.

Edit: Fixed the tw-word - AJ

Edited by A. J. Raffles, 14 April 2006 - 01:20 PM.


#42 Tom Henrik

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Posted 13 April 2006 - 11:00 PM

Quote

It's about noticing people about freeware games, a request made in the updaters forum on Abandonia. But one of the main references to updaters is the Oldwarez list by Tom, so I don't see how we could tell Tom a game is freeware - if it's not on his freeware list, and I fail to see why should anyone tell Tom a game is freeware, if he already clasifyed it as such on his list... but this is getting beyond the initial point.

As I have no idea what kind of games the updaters on AB have in their hands at every given moment... the idea is to tell someone (anyone) on AR that "Hey, guys. We got this here game, and the DOS list says it's freeware. Catch!"

That's the kind of communication we are looking for.

Quote

If I undersand this correctly - AR didn't want to have comertial games that turned freeware.
Abandonia wants these games.
Abandonia doesn't want independently made freeware games (the ones that were added are there from the days before AR was made), AR is dedicated to these games.

So why not simply change the rules???

All comertially made games (regarthless if they're freeware/abandonaware/protected) are to be considered for Abandonia (even if protected games only as reviews - not to be downloaded).
All independantly made freeware titles are to be considered for Abandonia Reloaded.

That would make sense wouldn't it?

Not as much sense as simply dividing and say Abandonware = AB    /   Freeware = AR

Why is this easier?

Because if the game is old and you can't find it in stores or for a free download by the author - then the game is Abandonware.
(Takes about 15 minutes tops to do a thorough search to confirm this status.)

If you find a free download by the author - then it is Freeware.
(Takes less than 15 minutes to do this.)


If AR had to look at each single game, to see if it was sold at some point in the history of man, this would take weeks.

Example:
TEEN AGENT and THE ADVENTURES of FATMAN: TOXIC REVENGE.

These games appear to have been made by a couple of kids using AGS - and subsequently released for free. But both of these games were commercially released games.

The only way you would've possibly noticed this was either by knowing it - or by searching a huge amount of sites, before finally realizing it. Which means that by your standard, these games should go on AB.


The idea makes sense, but it is easier and more sensible to draw the line between Abandonware and Freeware.





And as I said earlier, this debate is no longer a debate. It has been agreed upon a long time ago. Deal with it.

*locking down*

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