70 replies to this topic

[Juni Ori]

@Daka: I don't quite get it what you could do with them?

@Tulac: It's only me! But to the point: I was thinking about going as deep as squad based detail - which wouldn't necessarily be the smallest unit on the field. So every squad's actions would be calculated and determined how much they move and cause and sustain casualties. Squad, gun team, whatever. Now some clever guy thinks how much that would actually burden CPU. Well, it isn't necessarily too much, as most of the units aren't in the battle or be active in battle at the same time. In my earlier example contact was made with one company (12 squads), battles would most likely settle down in the defense line when 1st regiment attacked the road and so on. The battle doesn't usually rage everywhere at the same time. Units need to rest (especially after even a short assault in heavy snow), they have only limited ammunition, etc. Of course a coordinated all-out assault would burden CPU... Well, game could calculate units in sizes of platoons, if that platoon is together. Or why not even a company.

But that's just how. Then we come to the huge problem: What values would be realistic? There we would just have to read reports from WW2 and try to figure out somewhat believeable values. And I mean reliable reports, not some commissar's of Soviet Guard Army. And it would be huge effort to tune up those values, I admit. Units would also have certain amount of weapons, which of some would break down, soldiers should be able to pick replacements to lost weapons, etc. Complicated, true, but worth it. Then there are very difficult problems like morale, exhaustion, etc. How to calculate morale? How to determine when unit is exhausted and simply just can't continue before some rest? How do new recruits effect the unit's combat ability? Big questions which are hard to answer, unless we just simplify things a lot. Which, in name of reality and what is possible, we would need to do. To be honest, I haven't yet given this thing enough thought, so I don't have answers yet, but hopefully soon.

[DakaSha]

the thing is you can micro manage by setting a billion integers or you can fill out a couple "command priorities"... im not gonna get to much into it because if you dont see it working out then it doesnt fit into your design scheme(i didnt read all of your posts so mabye thats the case). its a very simple process

[Juni Ori]

Well, I can't see them fit in... Sorry. Thanks for trying!

Hmm... I've been pondering how I could do it turn based, as whole game would be so much easier to do. Hex-based of course, but turn length is a big question. You should be able to give orders every minute, but 1 minute turns would prolong the game to possibly unnecessary lengths. Think about battle lasting two days? 2880 turns! Then again there would certainly be periods when you wouldn't give any orders, when units are moving into position or preparing to battle. Simply pressing end turn for even hundredsof  times just to get into the positions. Not likely. One solution could be that game would jump into the phase when first unit reports in. Or skip 10 turns - again game would intercept if some unit reported in. Or even skip 60 turns (hour), for situations where player knows that fulfilling orders will take some serious time. Opinions?

Btw, one important thing has been forgotten: Player's general. You wouldn't necessarily know the exact location in the map, like when on fast moving, you'd just get estimated position. But that wasn't the most important thing. It is that you can die. Simpliest way to ensure you can give orders is to be with the unit, but it could place you under fire and into serious danger. Die or seriously wound, game ends. Light wounds wouldn't necessarily trouble you. And of course, you might be unconscious for some time if shell happens to explode close enough, but won't kill you. Also, you need to sleep sometimes. All these times your adjutant (read: AI) would be in charge and responsible. Which brings to my mind an idea, that if sleeping and enemy manages to do surprise attack to your HQ, you'd of course wake into the sounds of combat. Unless spec ops have killed or captured you already silently!

Well, there was again too much text. I don't even believe nobody has actually read all these!

[Abi79]

I read them. Brilliant. If only this game would exist (and work on my computer), I'd be the happiest child around


EDIT: Even if the game would need to be bought I'd be happy. There are many ways to get a sold game

[Juni Ori]

Okay, looks like I'm not going to do much else today but compose this.

So far I've been thinking that smallest unit would be single soldier. Okay, fine idea in a way, but when combined with following abilities I'd like units have, I don't think it's fine anymore. Abilities thought so far:
Weapon skills:
Close Combat
Small Arms (rifle, smg, etc)
Light Guns (machine gun, at-rifle, bazooka, etc)
Heavy Guns (at-guns, inf-guns, tank-guns, etc)
Mortars, Artillery, Anti-Aircraft
Movement abilities:
March, Bicycle, Horse, Ski, Drive Wheeled, Drive Tracked, Drive Boat, Drive Train
Other abilities:
Drill (unit's NCO skill, remember that commander needs to train his men too)
Battlefield experience (how able unit is to fight under fire, affects also morale)
Command, Endurance, Morale, Taking Cover, Fortify, Mines, Explosives, Radio

And one important thing: None of the above is visible information!!! There could be evaluations of how good your troops seem to be, like in reality, but in reality you don't have exact numbers, where to lean to. And of course inexperienced replacements would drag values down.

Combining weapon skill and used weapon would give the total value, which is used against enemy's Taking Cover, altered by terrain, entrenchment etc. Does that sound even remotely reasonable?

[Tulac]

So this would be again ability of a single soldier? That would be some heavy calculation...

[Juni Ori]

Juni Ori, on Jan 16 2006, 12:35 PM, said:

So far I've been thinking that smallest unit would be single soldier. Okay, fine idea in a way, but when combined with following abilities I'd like units have, I don't think it's fine anymore.

Rather like team or squad. Or possibly even a platoon. Nominal strength of Finnish Infantry Division in Dec 1939 was 14'200. That multiplied by 25 abilities (atm) would be 355'000 values. On one side. Now if we base it to only teams or squads, we get multiplier only few hundreds (yeah, didn't care to count exact number...) which totals to something like few thousands values. Okay, that's quite much too, I admit. Hmm... perhaps this needs simplifying...

[DakaSha]

heh youll come across that one often enough

[Juni Ori]

Okay, I took my (not very first, but still) first steps on path of programming and I have to say that I don't have it what it takes. First of all, two identical codes and first works, second doesn't... And they really are identical. Then I took copy of the code that worked and - as it wasn't as tidy as it could be - made some alterations. Doesn't work. Best of all, error report points to a part I did NOT touch!!! I admit my embarrassing defeat and stick with game design, not programming. /

Back to topic, I have big pile of designs and scenarios drawn and written on paper. Looks like I'm going to do the game design even if nobody ever programs it. Hooked and badly!

[Playbahnosh]

Hey dude, cheer up! Programming is no easy thing but CAN be learned though. If you want to make this game reality, I suggest you start coding. I mean start out with some simple stuff like the "Hello world!" stuff found in each and every language. Don't be disappointed if you can't hardcode this game in one shot. I'm programming like 5 years now, and I myself couldn't code this game. I could do some simple algorithms and probably some very stupid AI reactions, but this project will take SOME time to be completed

Go on, start coding, before someone takes this brilliant game idea and releases it under windows vista

[Juni Ori]

Heh, I was very well aware that I won't be able to code this in million years, but decided to start learning. And after few days of headache, decided to forget it. And true, I'd like to be part of the team that made this game, but at the moment it seems to be impossible, so I just hope somebody actually does it. And I must say they can't do it as good as with me!